Increase in max load data with Unique for 38's

[stang68]

In the 2005 edition of the Alliant load data it lists 4.5 gr. of Unique as the max charge for 38 Special+P with 158gr LSWC (no brand specified) but the current data lists 5.2 gr of Unique as the max charge but this time they list a Speer LSWC. What gives? Should I be able to safely use 5.2gr with any 158gr LSWC or is there something unique about the Speer LSWC's. The charge has also increased for 38 Special from 4.3gr to 4.7gr.
Whoops, just noticed that I had posted and asked this question once before, never really got an answer. My loads will be for a Model 66 so should have no problem handling 5.0 gr.

 

[sw282]

si--------

 

[Hunt200]

I use 4.3 for plinking loads with a 158 LRN and is pretty tame.

Email them with the bullet and powder you are using and they will send you the current data they have.

 

[Szumi]

I was about to start a thread. I have a bunch of .38spl that I loaded +p using LRN 158g 5.2g unique.

Lyman #47 manual shows 5.4g unique as +p for their #358311 LRN cast out of linotype with 5.1g being standard .38 non plus p.

Since the fire arm I'm planning to shoot this with is a 442-1 (J frame airweight) I really want to be right about this.

BTW, this is ammo I loaded 9/01/01 so that is type of Unique I used.

Thanks,

Szumi

 

[Forester]

Historically, it was even higher.

 

[Hunt200]

I was about to start a thread. I have a bunch of .38spl that I loaded +p using LRN 158g 5.2g unique.

Lyman #47 manual shows 5.4g unique as +p for their #358311 LRN cast out of linotype with 5.1g being standard .38 non plus p.

Since the fire arm I'm planning to shoot this with is a 442-1 (J frame airweight) I really want to be right about this.

BTW, this is ammo I loaded 9/01/01 so that is type of Unique I used.

Thanks,

Szumi

If you use straight wheel weights the 358311 will be closer to 160 grains.

What are you doing with it? If you are making plinking loads, 4.3 to 4.7 would be what I would load them with.

 

[Rule3]

The Speer #14 manual lists 4.7 to 5.2 with Unique. I find it odd that it increased because as far as I remember the Speer 158 gr bullet is a soft swagged bullet. I think you would be find with any cast 158 bullet.

Actually the Unique data is kind in the middle and there are several powders which yield higher FPS. Not much but still higher. The fastest being Power Pistol at 1037 fps out of a 6" SW Model 14

 

[brucev]

Once upon a time... Skeeter Skelton mentioned using 5.0 gr. of Unique with a 158-160 gr. cast lead SWC. He did not recommend it for use in aluminum framed guns. I have shot it in K, L and N frame .38 and .38/.357 revolvers for over 25 years. It has not ever given me anything except perfect results. HTH.

 

[stang68]

Thanks for all the responses, I'll try a few at 5.0 with my K-frame.

 

[Treeman]

What happened was ATK bought Speer. Alliant data changed to Speer Data....which was/is a good thing since Speer has been doing ballistic testing for decades and whoever worked up Alliant's .38 special data got results far different from every other ballistics lab. (Lyman, Hodgdon and Speer were very close to one another, Hornady and Nosler in there also, Sierra (whom I do not think actually pressure test .38 Specials was much HIGHER.)
5 grains of Unique with a 158-160 is almost THE standard .38 special load.....since the 1930's.

 

[Steve C]

Velocity is dependant on primer used. Current Speer and Alliant data uses CCI primers. Average velocities from loads chrono'd on the same day with the same pistols. Notice that .2 gr lighter load with WSP primers yield a higher velocity than the CCI primers do with a heavier load.

Detective Special 2"

158gr Speer LSWC 5.2grs Unique CCI 500 primer 733 fps
158gr Speer LSWC, 5.0grs Unique, WSP primer, 782 fps

S&W Model 67 4"

158gr Speer LSWC 5.2grs Unique CCI 500 primer 886 fps
158gr Speer LSWC, 5.0grs Unique, WSP primer, 901 fps

 

[blujax01]

Velocity is dependant on primer used. Current Speer and Alliant data uses CCI primers. Average velocities from loads chrono'd on the same day with the same pistols. Notice that .2 gr lighter load with WSP primers yield a higher velocity than the CCI primers do with a heavier load.

Detective Special 2"

158gr Speer LSWC 5.2grs Unique CCI 500 primer 733 fps
158gr Speer LSWC, 5.0grs Unique, WSP primer, 782 fps

S&W Model 67 4"

158gr Speer LSWC 5.2grs Unique CCI 500 primer 886 fps
158gr Speer LSWC, 5.0grs Unique, WSP primer, 901 fps

Wow. I'm a newbie and this is the first time I have seen data proving that there is a difference in the primers. Thanks.

 

[ARMinSC]

5.0grs of Unique and a 158gr LSWC is a real nice load in my 3" M65 it cuts a perfect round hole in the target.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Velocity is dependant on primer used.

Yes, this is true too. If you want to really see a difference numerically, look at the ES and SD numbers. If your chronograph doesn't give you those numbers, there are functions inside Excel that can give you those numbers very easily.

If you, or anyone, needs some help with them, let me know and I can send you a spreadsheet with the formulas put on it.


This is another example of the age old caution to reloaders, especially newbies, change one component, reduce the charge and work back up.

 

[stang68]

Steve C - Thanks for the primer info, I didn't know that. When there was a primer shortage all I could get was CCI but I liked WSP better for some unknown reason. I just recently swapped my last brick of CCI for WSP

 

[stang68]

I just received this response back from Alliant:

"Our old loads were not actually quite up to +P pressure, 17,000 psi vs
20,000 psi. The Speer loads are. Thanks for your note and have a nice
day."

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 3:23 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form




I'm concerned about the large increase in max load data for 38 Special
+P with Unique for 158 gr. LSWC from the 2005 edition of the load data
(4.5gr) to the current data (5.2gr)Is this just with the Speer LSWC or
any LSWC? The 38 Special data has also gone from 4.3gr to 4.7gr max

 

[Maximumbob54]

I just received this response back from Alliant:

"Our old loads were not actually quite up to +P pressure, 17,000 psi vs
20,000 psi. The Speer loads are. Thanks for your note and have a nice
day."

Ben Amonette
Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 3:23 PM
To: Alliant Reloading
Subject: Alliant Powder - Ask the Expert Form




I'm concerned about the large increase in max load data for 38 Special
+P with Unique for 158 gr. LSWC from the 2005 edition of the load data
(4.5gr) to the current data (5.2gr)Is this just with the Speer LSWC or
any LSWC? The 38 Special data has also gone from 4.3gr to 4.7gr max

I find this odd only because I thought +P was + Pressure. If .38 Special is X PSI then 38 Special +P should be Z pressure. Not X to Z rated pressure. If a certain powder is only safe up to a certain amount then that is the max pressure you can use and you need to record that velocity for publishing in your manual. So if you can use more Power Pistol by volume than Unique and still stay at the max pressure then that is what I thought was listed. They just also list for starting loads an amount that won’t create a squib load. I get that pressure built from smokeless powder is no linear and is instead exponential but I didn’t know they don’t just list the max as a max pressure for the SAAMI rating for that cartridge. If I made any sense at all there… it’s right in my head but I don’t think I am typing that right.