Info needed on 1917

[Frankenstein]

I picked up a 1917 the other day. Knew nothing about it, just saw it in the pawn shop and liked it. Serial number is 181378. Read through a few posts using the search engine and still a little confused about what it actually is or roughly when it was made.

1. It has no 'US Property' markings, so I guess it s a 'Commercial'?
2. It clearly does not have the original grips, so cannot pull those and look a what is written on them.
3. I believe that that is the 'Mushroom' knob?
4. Serial number matches on cylinder, butt, barrel
5. No other marking on cylinder face.
6. Has an 'Eagle over S2' marking on the frame/yoke area. Cannot see any others.
7. Guessing it has been reblued as the cylinder has a little bit of a 'case hardened' coloring to it. Maybe it didn't take the bluing the same as the rest of it. Kinda like it.
8. No prefixes for the serial number. Though there is a 'B' before it on the barrel and there is a B stamped on the frame in the yoke area above the assembly number.
9. The rear sight appears to be a square notch.
10. Small S&W trademark on left side.

Any input is appreciated. Got it to shoot it, but when I found it was probably a little older than I thought, piqued my interest.

 

[rincar]

Does it have a Brazilian Crest on the Right side of the frame. You may have to look at the Right side with a magnifying glass. It may be hard see having been reblued .

 

[handejector]

Yes, you have a Commercial with a mushroom knob. Yes, it has been reblued.
As rincar said, look for traces of the Brazilian crest. If not there, it is most likely just a regular Commercial.

 

[Jack Flash]

Is the eagle over S2 on the yoke or the frame? Everything else points to it being a commercial variation or a Brazilian.

 

[Frankenstein]

I cannot see a trace of a crest or anything like that. Just some tiny pits if I really zoom in that contribute to my reblue theory. Really good idea though. Never even thought of that and it still might be valid.
Another thing that made me think of the reblue (other than the odd coloring) was that I thought the little 'nubbin' under the cylinder on the left side was supposed to stick out a little more. (I understand that is not the official S&W nomenclature!). If that was polished down as much as i think it was, so could a Brazilian crest.

The Eagle stamp is on the frame. As mentioned, it's the only Eagle stamp I could see.

Thanks so much guys for the info. I just like to know stuff about what I have.

I was going thinking of replacing the grips, but the ones on it feel really good. Guess I could get some repros and sell off the ones on it already. It's clearly been 'doctored' quite a bit already.

I guess with that much polishing, rebluing, lack of grips etc, it's going to be hard to date it without a letter. Might be worth it just to know. Whether it is a Commercial, a Brazilian or whatever, it's just interesting to think of how many hands the gun has passed through before ending up in a Houston pawn shop. If only they could talk, right?

It shot nicely and the action is great. Really pleased with it. Makes me want another .45 ACP revolver.

Thanks again chaps, really appreciate it.

 

[MG34/bar]

Frankenstein, I think you have an older re-blued Brazilian model. I say that because your 2nd picture showing the hammer indicates that your hammer has the S&W patent warning on the rear. I've had many 1917 S&W revolvers over the years (bought my first one in 1959), and none of the US marked revolvers had the patent info on either the hammer or the trigger.

 

[Frankenstein]

Frankenstein, I think you have an older re-blued Brazilian model. I say that because your 2nd picture showing the hammer indicates that your hammer has the S&W patent warning on the rear. I've had many 1917 S&W revolvers over the years (bought my first one in 1959), and none of the US marked revolvers had the patent info on either the hammer or the trigger.

Wow! What an eye! I never even saw that. I'm going to have to dig it out now and look for other markings more closely.

 

[Jack Flash]

... The Eagle stamp is on the frame. As mentioned, it's the only Eagle stamp I could see.

...

That's puzzling (to me at least). I know that a lot of WWI frames were left over and used for years, but the change to the square notch rear sight was in the 1920s, wasn't it? Why would such a frame have the WWI inspector's mark?

... I was going thinking of replacing the grips, but the ones on it feel really good. Guess I could get some repros and sell off the ones on it already. It's clearly been 'doctored' quite a bit already.

...

I would stay with those if they suit you for shooting. If you get repos, next you will want to replace the butt swivel (lanyard loop), which you would have to take back off to re-install the target stocks. I do note that someone thoughtfully left the butt swivel pin in place.

 

[Hondo44]

The B on the barrel preceding the serial # and on the right side grip frame is for the blue finish. The B in the yoke cutout is coincidental and is the civilian inspector stamp (can be any letter).

The S stamp following the serial # on the barrel for Stewart (Gilbert H. Stewart), Gov't inspector, is used w/o eagle head or # following the S; found on cyl, under barrel and maybe frame.

The purple cyl is a common non-factory re-finish indicator. The cyl is heat treated and needs more time in the bluing tank than the rest of the gun to get completely blued.

The frame is a left over WW I military frame, hence the eagle head with S2 inspectors stamp. They were used for commercial models, both .44 and .45, and mostly for the 1946 Brazilian contract. The 1937 Brazilian contract mostly used later/new production frames.



RE-USE OF 1917 SURPLUS FRAMES:

Inspected, but unused serial numbered 1917 military frames preceding and following #169959 (the estimated last military unit made), were assembled thru #209791 by 1946. Some numbered frames went to the Navy and Marines.

Some 1917 frames and parts left over from the government contract with very varied shipping dates were assembled into many commercial model 1917s, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1937 but mostly in 1946. Therefore the s/n is of little help to pin down the shipping dates, but features do help. Any 1917 frames used for 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors will have serial #s in the regular N frames serial number series.

There are numerous examples that have the flaming bomb or eagle government inspector stamps in one or more various locations but not on the outside of the frame which were finished off; only in the yoke, and on 45 barrels and/or 45 cylinders. Also fouling cutouts may be found on these frames under the top strap.
Example: 45 ACP all matching serial number is #55639 (assembly #18408 match in all 3 locations as well), it's a round top/U sight notch, has Eagle head proofs inspectors stamps on barrel & cylinder; S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel. Likely from the 1946 contract because of round top strap and U notch.
War time 1917s did not have S&W trademark logos.
If it has the S&W trademark on the frame it is a commercial gun, at least after ~ 1920, or a Brazilian.


1917 ARMY COMMERCIAL MODEL (not including PW Transitional models):

Produced 10,447 (per S&W Journal Book 2, pg 583). The factory added the 1917 as a regular cataloged commercial model in 1919 catalog (per S&W Journal Book 2, pg 583) and in Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army. That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply.

Features of Commercial models WW I and post 1920:

• Com'l 1917 models have a serial # parallel to the butt like all other Com'l models (with a few exceptions stamped on the front grip strap). The butt # on all pre war guns will read right side up with muzzle to the right.
No "Army" grip mark, or "US Property" barrel mark. (Note: SCSW-3 states some coml. models can be found with barrel mark, but those are most likely military surplus military barrels.)
• Stamped "S.&W. D.A. 45" left side barrel and "SMITH & WESSON" on right side.
• 5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, and the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45" left side only and likely "SMITH & WESSON" right side.
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
• Frames and sometimes cyls and barrels (w/o US property mark) are usually surplus military with eagle head and S# military inspector marks thru ~ 1926
• MADE IN U.S.A. right side frame except before 1922 or if made on a WWI surplus frame.
• Mushroom knob on all 1917s until post war Transitional Models.
• No hammer block safety until 1933 when 1917s first included the 2nd style side plate mounted hammer block safety (which uses the hand spring in front top of trigger) at ~ # 185,000 per SCSW 3rd Ed., pg 163 w/o an S prefix to butt # because of course it's prior to 1946.
• S&W logo left side post 1920 [until after 12/1936, when changed to large logo on side plate].
• Smooth trigger until serrated trigger order change March 18, 1929.
• Com'l 1917s had Com'l grips of the vintage of when they were made/shipped: In the 1920s they had com'l checkered Svc grips w/o medallions, convex rounded tops. In the 1930s up thru 1941, standard com'l checkered Svc grips with flat silver medallions or pre war Magnas beginning 1938.
• A 1917 Coml #179698 shipped 9/20/27.


CYLINDER HOLD OPEN DEVICE:

In my experience military 1917s had the cylinder hold open detent in the yoke bell crank as did all pre war N frames and some early I and K frames. The cyl hold open detent went away on all frames after WW II with the usual few exceptions that had frames/yokes made pre war. It's been reported that some 1917s do not have the detent as a war time expedient, but of the hundreds of 1917s I've seen all did or at least had the hole with wear evidence that the detent spring and pin were lost. Use caution if you remove the yoke and cylinder from the frame or the spring and plunger can launch across the room to no man knows where.

Plunger shown here in bottom of yoke and has a spring underneath it:

Photo credit: handejector


SERIAL # LOCATIONS:

To confirm all parts are original, one can check for the 6 (or 7 - Triple Lock models only) matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and a few as much as 3 years later.
NOTE: Observing some of the serial #s with accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Grip frame butt (prefixed by a letter(s) following WWII) - or fore strap on I frame Regulation Police models and single shots with grips that cover the butt
2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud, (Triple locks have tiny #s stamped in front end of the shroud; sideways/vertical if over 3 numerical digits, otherwise horizontal).
3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight (except the .32 Model 1896 and no doubt a few others)
4. Extractor star – backside (which is actually the side facing the muzzle).
5. Cylinder - rear face
6. Right stock only - on back, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material, stamped after 1929, (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)
7. .44 TL models only: rear side of middle lock cam plate (Triple Lock models only)

 

[Muley Gil]

I just got my commercial 1917, #180692, shipped in January 1936, down and it has the "dimple" rear sight notch. The OP's rear sight is definitely the newer square notch, flat top frame style. The only explanation I can think of is that this is a WW I frame that was updated to the square notch rear sight.

 

[VaTom]

Frankenstein, I think you have an older re-blued Brazilian model. I say that because your 2nd picture showing the hammer indicates that your hammer has the S&W patent warning on the rear. I've had many 1917 S&W revolvers over the years (bought my first one in 1959), and none of the US marked revolvers had the patent info on either the hammer or the trigger.

The patent marking on the the Hammer and Trigger on K and N frames began in June 1926 and continued until WWII production began. It was the patent notice for the color case hardening process. (SCSW - 4th edition page 493). I have a commercial 1917 (not Brazilian) with the notice on both. Estimate mine was made in 1929.

 

[Hondo44]

I just got my commercial 1917, #180692, shipped in January 1936, down and it has the "dimple" rear sight notch. The OP's rear sight is definitely the newer square notch, flat top frame style. The only explanation I can think of is that this is a WW I frame that was updated to the square notch rear sight.

I figured someone enlarged the dimple sight. It didn't look like a sq notch to me. But the top of the frame is somewhat flattened. Although I haven't seen any WWI frames redone at the factory like that, you may be right!

 

[tenntex32]

Does the barrel have the "SMITH & WESSON" marking on it's right side? (Typically I don't see that with leftover WWI era barrels with WWI era inspector markings such as the "S" or eagle head/S-number.)

Also, I'd like to see all the WWI era inspector markings stamped on the frame. As others have eluded to we typically don't see them with the commercial framed examples having the squared-off type rear sight notch.

I would think it unusual of S&W to convert an old U.S. contract frame oval rear sight area to the style found on the later commercial models but I'be learned to never say never with regards to the goings on at S&W.

Thanks,
Dale

 

[tenntex32]

Here are pics of the different rear sight styles.

The first pic is the U.S. military contract style frame.

The second pic is of the later era commercial models not built on WWI era frames.

Another thing of note.......the "S" inpsection stamp, such as the one on your barrel, had stopped being used in the earlier period of S&W M1917 production. Thus your example had it's barrel built and inspected in the WWI era and laid around unserialized for a number of years until built into a commercial model at a later time.

Was there an "S" stamp on the rear face of the cylinder as well?

We really need more pics. If your frame truly is a WWI era U.S. contract frame, with proper inspection markings, the would be somewhat of an unusual item having the later era commercial rear sight style (added).

I'd love to see all of it's inspector stamps, whether they be an early production "S" or later production eagle head/S-number style.

 

[Frankenstein]

Amazing information guys!

To answer some of the questions.
Yes, it has Smith and Wesson on the right side of the barrel.
No, i only see the serial number on the rear of the cylinder
I've attached some more pics.
First is a better pic of the rear sight. Definitely looks like the second picture (to me at least)
Next is a picture of that S2 stamp.
Last three are stamps I found on the grip frame. First two are Left and right of the grip retaining pin, then there is something that looks like a '1' on the left side of the frame near the top of what would be covered by the grip

 

[Frankenstein]

One more pic.
This is the left side plate. I cannot make out anything like a crest, but then I am not familiar with what it looks like.

 

[tenntex32]

An odd duck to say the least. It exhibits all the later era commercial traits we would expect to see on the frame and barrel with both obviously being inspected during the WWI era production run.

Not only that the barrel has an earlier "S" inspector marking, the frame has the later eagle head/S-number inspector marking and the cylinder exhibits no inspection stamps at all.

Just gonna reach a little further here.......can you verify if the yoke has a WWI era inspector's stamp on the area opposite of where it mates to the frame? If so which style is it?

A cool odd duck it is.

Dale

 

[tenntex32]

One more pic.
This is the left side plate. I cannot make out anything like a crest, but then I am not familiar with what it looks like.

Here's a pic of the Brazilian crest on the removable sideplate.

Even if your example happened to be a Brazilian example I still wouldn't expect to see the commercial features on the WWI era U.S. contract parts having inspection stamps from that era. I have simply seen too many Brazilian examples built with leftover WWI contract parts that did not have the commercial traits added to them. (As well as seeing way too many post-WWI commercial M1917 examples built with leftover WWI contract parts that did not have the later era commercial traits added to them.)

 

[tenntex32]

I can't help but wonder if for the briefest amount of time S&W added the later commercial features to the earlier leftover WWI era parts in anticipation of the changes to come.

I also can't help but wonder how many such "transitional" commercial examples were made until those features actually became standard on later era parts? (The use of the word "transitional" is sure to ruffle more than a few feathers here!)

 

[Frankenstein]

An odd duck to say the least. It exhibits all the later era commercial traits we would expect to see on the frame and barrel with both obviously being inspected during the WWI era production run.

Not only that the barrel has an earlier "S" inspector marking, the frame has the later eagle head/S-number inspector marking and the cylinder exhibits no inspection stamps at all.

Just gonna reach a little further here.......can you verify if the yoke has a WWI era inspector's stamp on the area opposite of where it mates to the frame? If so which style is it?

A cool odd duck it is.

Dale

I do not see one.

 

[tenntex32]

Here is a prime example of what I would expect a commercial example built using leftover WWI era parts to look like.

SCARCE, LIMITED PRODUCTION PRE-WAR CIVILIAN/COMMERCIAL MODEL 1917 .45 ACP REVOLVER, #178XXX

Take note of it's rear sight style and lack of right side "SMITH & WESSON" barrel markings. This is similar to WWI M1917 production examples. Also take note of it's relatively high s/n of 178xxx.

 

[tenntex32]

I do not see one.

Which makes a lot of sense if the yoke and cylinder were both non-WWI era leftover parts, assuming their lack of WWI era inspector markings would typically mean such.

 

[tenntex32]

Frankenstein, I think you have an older re-blued Brazilian model. I say that because your 2nd picture showing the hammer indicates that your hammer has the S&W patent warning on the rear. I've had many 1917 S&W revolvers over the years (bought my first one in 1959), and none of the US marked revolvers had the patent info on either the hammer or the trigger.

Later era commercial models built with the more squared off rear sight will also have the patent marks on the hammer and trigger. My true commercial (non-Brazilian) example does have them and it is in the 1819xx serial number range.

The 1937 contract Brazilian M1917 examples built on commercial frames of that era are typically identical to the commercial S&W examples with the exception of them having the added Brazilian crest on the sideplate.

Once again the OP's example exhibits just about every later era commercial trait I can think of with the exception of it having the WWI era inspection stamps on it's barrel and frame.

I will make sure to keep the OP's example in the back of my mind when inspecting commercial and Brazilian M1917 examples.

 

[Frankenstein]

Which makes a lot of sense if the yoke and cylinder were both non-WWI era leftover parts, assuming their lack of WWI era inspector markings would typically mean such.

So, the assembly numbers would be added at the time of. er, assembly? That's why those match.
Yoke s/n and extractor star underside s/n match the barrel, cylinder and frame too.

 

[Frankenstein]

One other piece of info in form of a question. I hear about hammer safeties and the S prefix. Is it just a different newer version of safety that came with the S prefix?
This definitely has some form of safety. The hammer does go forward further with the trigger pressed than not. I also tested with a primed but empty case. IF I hold the trigger and release the hammer, the primer goes off. If I hold the hammer, pull the trigger, let the hammer go forward a bit, then let go of the trigger and let the hammer go forward, it gets 'stopped' before it can hit the primer

 

[tenntex32]

Frankenstein, in case you are wondering a commercial example (and 1937 Brazilian example) exhibiting physical traits such as yours I feel would have NORMALLY left the factory wearing checkered walnut stocks with silver medallions.

Both my commercial model and Brazilian 1937 have similar commercial traits as your example and they have s/n matching stocks which are checkered walnut with silver medallions (Unfortunately both my commercial and Brazilian M1917 were refinished prior to me owning them..........but funny enough they do still have their numbers matching stocks.)

Of course only a letter from S&W will give you absolute certainty with regards to the stocks that were on it when it left the factory. Sometimes things got built and shipped out of expected normal time sequence so anything can happen.

If it were mine I would attempt to locate a set of correct era stocks and a lanyard ring. For those of us who enjoy the minutia of the M1917 it is definitely a conversation piece.

 

[Frankenstein]

Frankenstein, in case you are wondering a commercial example (and 1937 Brazilian example) exhibiting physical traits such as yours I feel would have NORMALLY left the factory wearing checkered walnut stocks with silver medallions.

Both my commercial model and Brazilian 1937 have similar commercial traits as your example and they have s/n matching stocks which are checkered walnut with silver medallions (Unfortunately both my commercial and Brazilian M1917 were refinished prior to me owning them..........but funny enough they do still have their numbers matching stocks.)

Of course only a letter from S&W will give you absolute certainty with regards to the stocks that were on it when it left the factory. Sometimes things got built and shipped out of expected normal time sequence so anything can happen.

If it were mine I would attempt to locate a set of correct era stocks and a lanyard ring. For those of us who enjoy the minutia of the M1917 it is definitely a conversation piece.

Thanks. I was just going to ask that very question!

 

[tenntex32]

With your example having earlier WWI era parts I guess there is also the slightest of chance that it could have had the checkered non-medallioned stocks typical of the commercial models from 1920s built using leftover military M1917 parts.

Once again, if you are willing to pay for a factory letter you may find some certainty there.

Unfortunately with your example having the earlier WWI era M1917 parts with later era commercial features it's a bit of a toss-up.......but I would lean towards the later era checkered silver medallioned stocks due to the later era commercial features it also exhibits.

 

[tenntex32]

One other piece of info in form of a question. I hear about hammer safeties and the S prefix. Is it just a different newer version of safety that came with the S prefix?
This definitely has some form of safety. The hammer does go forward further with the trigger pressed than not. I also tested with a primed but empty case. IF I hold the trigger and release the hammer, the primer goes off. If I hold the hammer, pull the trigger, let the hammer go forward a bit, then let go of the trigger and let the hammer go forward, it gets 'stopped' before it can hit the primer

Do not confuse the "S" inspection stamp with the "S" stamp on revolver examples later fitted with hammer block safeties. The late WWII Victory model and post WWII M&P examples comes to mind with their added "S" stamps, SV and S prefixes. Maybe someone can tell us if the post-WII M1917 commercial variants examples also had the hammer block safeties incorporated into them. Unfortunately I do not currently have a post-WWII commercial variant in my collection. (I do have a 25-2 but that doesn't really help us here.)

It is a normal design feature for the hammer to rebound rearward once the trigger has returned to it's forward position.

 

[Frankenstein]

With your example having earlier WWI era parts I guess there is also the slightest of chance that it could have had the checkered non-medallioned stocks typical of the commercial models from 1920s built using leftover military M1917 parts.

Once again, if you are willing to pay for a factory letter you may find some certainty there.

Unfortunately with your example having the earlier WWI era M1917 parts with later era commercial features it's a bit of a toss-up.......but I would lean towards the later era stocks due to the later era commercial features it also exhibits.

Would the question/info I posted about it evidently having some form of hammer safety (even with no S prefix on the serial number) point towards the later era?

I wasn't sure if the prefix just meant it had a newer type of hammer safety than before, or if prior to that, there were no hammer safeties at all.

edited: Just saw your answer to my question. Thanks!