Personally, if this to be a shooter, I would add John Culina's smooth Magna grips. Since this one has been refinished, it will never be a true collectible, so why search out expensive grips that wouldn't be numbered to it and aren't as comfortable when it comes to shooting.
Info needed on 1917
- Thread starter Frankenstein
- Start date
tenntex32
Member
It's plenty collectible to a guy like me..........but I fall well short of a purist and tend to be an accumulator, especially of conversational items such as this.
Dale
tenntex32
Member
There is also an assembly number stamped on the backside of the removable sideplate. It should match the assembly numbers stamped on the frame and yoke if original to the revolver.
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tenntex32
Member
Normally I would approach a S&W frame as an assembled item having it's yoke and sideplate fitted and marked with an assembly number matching the frame's assembly number during initial manufacture.
After a caliber and grip style was selected for the frame the appropriate caliber barrel, cylinder, and selected style grips would be fitted to the frame and then all of the associated parts would be serialized.
Of course I may be way oversimplifying things here but you get the gist.
With your example you have an older WWI era inspected frame that has a yoke mated to it that does not have an older WWI era inspector marking at all. This tells me your frame was most likely not a complete "assembled" WWI era frame, but possibly just a bare frame prior to being assembled into a commercial model. Even the barrel would be incorrect for the time period of the frame as it has the earlier "S" inspector stamp versus the frame's eagle head/S-number stamp. Also the commercial marked hammer and trigger tells us the internals were fitted/installed at a much later time period versus the frame's original manufacture.
Your example is a contradiction of the expected norms on so many different fronts........but once again is proof as to why I "never say never" with regards to what S&W does.
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Mr. Jinks has said that S&W didn't stamp 'US Army Model 1917', and a circle with GHS inspector or the flaming bomb on all guns until after the Govt. took control of S&W in Jan 1918 because of Govt. dissatisfaction with S&W's production speed of the M1917.
Most early WWI 1917s are marked "GHS" in a circle, (Gilbert H. Stewart), Gov't inspector, left side frame up near the hammer: serial number approximate range 1 to at least 43894. During this period just an S inspector stamp for Stewart is used w/o eagle head or # following the S; found on cyl, under barrel and maybe frame. Note: there's also a GHD, Guy H. Drewry inspector from 1930-1957 (with various increasing ranks in front of his name), who was in charge of the Hartford Ordnance District and under whose authority and name, ordnance contractors stationed at the S&W factory inspected guns both for Lend-lease and for ASP (Army Supply Program) contracts.
Later guns are marked with a flaming bomb on upper rear left side of frame, beginning c. #42000 until deleted April 1918. So we see an apparent overlap of the two stamps being used. But most likely the bomb stamped guns numbered below 43894 were produced/shipped after the end of the GHS stamp use.
The April 1918 date is likely correct. But as usual with Smiths there are anomalies caused by the complete lack of Smith's serial # chronological correlation to their manufacturing and shipping dates. Therefore we find frames stamped with the flaming bomb most likely before April 1918, but not shipped till later, as late as the end of 1918 and mixed in with guns w/o the bomb stamp.
Later war time produced guns are inspector stamped in various locations with an eagle head over an "S" followed by a number like S1, S2, S3, S4, S6, S9, S24, S27, S34, etc., in several places from April 1918 to war's end: an early example is s/n 111XXX.
More details of inspector stamping: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/606106-stamp-1917-frame.html#post140614710
Assembly #s were needed once the frame, yoke and sideplate were fitted because the serial #s were not stamped yet.
• No hammer block safety until 1933 when 1917s first included the 2nd style side plate mounted hammer block safety (which uses the hand spring in front top of trigger) at ~ # 185,000 per SCSW 3rd Ed., pg 163 w/o an S prefix to butt # because of course it's prior to 1946.
After 1946 The post war sliding bar hammer block safety was used and the S serial # prefix began. However, there are some few post war examples missing the S but having the post war sliding bar safety.
Ray
Member
Is there any way to know who the S2,S3 etc. inspectors were?
Thanks, regards, Ray
Thanks, regards, Ray
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OP
Frankenstein
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Well,
Because this one seems to be a little unusual, due to the combination of early and later features, and also because of the incredible generosity from the people on this forum with their time and knowledge, I think it is only fair that I 'drop the benjamin' and put in the request for a letter. At least then we might have some additional information that we can add to the collective. I will also take off the side plate (don't panic, I won't use a pry tool! ) and take pics.
Thank you so much everyone for all the information. I honestly had no clue there was so much to this model. Truly fascinating stuff. So much history. As I mentioned earlier, if only these things could talk.....
Because this one seems to be a little unusual, due to the combination of early and later features, and also because of the incredible generosity from the people on this forum with their time and knowledge, I think it is only fair that I 'drop the benjamin' and put in the request for a letter. At least then we might have some additional information that we can add to the collective. I will also take off the side plate (don't panic, I won't use a pry tool! ) and take pics.
Thank you so much everyone for all the information. I honestly had no clue there was so much to this model. Truly fascinating stuff. So much history. As I mentioned earlier, if only these things could talk.....
In actuality your 1917 and its combination of early and later features is no more unusual than any other examples of pre war commercial 1917 production.
In fact it's the practices of S&W wholly to utilize existing surplus wartime parts production is in itself rather unusual and/or unique for all 1917 subsequent pre war production and as you've become aware, also includes the pre war 44 Special 2nd Model, pre war '37 Brazilians, and post war '46 Brazilians.
However, I agree you should get the letter.
In fact it's the practices of S&W wholly to utilize existing surplus wartime parts production is in itself rather unusual and/or unique for all 1917 subsequent pre war production and as you've become aware, also includes the pre war 44 Special 2nd Model, pre war '37 Brazilians, and post war '46 Brazilians.
However, I agree you should get the letter.
tenntex32
Member
It's a bit unusual that S&W modified the WWI era military contract frame to the later commercial style rear sight. Not saying it's the only one like it out there but I do not recall ever seeing another one like it. Typically with the post-WWI M1917 commercial models built using the leftover WWI era frames they left the frame in it's original configuration, rear sight wise.
If anyone else has a similar M1917 example having a WWI era inspected frame modified to resemble the later era commercial frame please share it with us. I wonder how many WWI era frames S&W modified in this manner before they stopped using them for their commercial models. (The huge assumption here is that S&W actually performed the rear sight area modification, of which appears to be identical to the later era commercial framed examples.)
If you do send off for a letter be sure to provide clear pics of the rear sight and WWI era inspector stamp on the frame. You might also ask if Roy if he feels it was truly a S&W modification of the rear sight and if there are records as to how many may have been converted in this fashion if it was a factory modification.
While I don't expect everyone to be as curious as I am about this, I am still very curious none-the-less.
Don't forget to verify the sideplate's assembly number while you have it off inspecting the internals.
Be sure to place the sideplate screws back into their original locations as the forwardmost sideplate/yoke retaining screw is properly fitted. (This is assuming the sideplate/yoke retaining screw is still in the correct location after all these years!)
Dale
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tenntex32
Member
With regards to the post-WWI/pre-WWII commercial M1917 models I would typically divide them into 2 categories......
1. The early commercial models built using leftover WWI era frames and parts, having the associated WWI era inspection stamps and physical traits such as the small oval rear sight, barrels not having any markings on the right side, and the triggers and hammers not having the patent markings. (Of course there may be periods as various older WWI era parts were used up later era parts were fitted, but typically we don't see modified WWI frames to look like later era commercial frames.)
2. The later commercial models built using a completely different commercial frame having the larger more squared off rear sight, "SMITH & WESSON" marking on the barrel right side, and the patent marks on the trigger and hammer.
If your example actually had it's rear sight modified by S&W to have the appearance of the later era frames being brought into production then not only was there a period for the WWI era parts being used up on the commercial models............ but there also now appears to have been a period of time where the older WWI era frames were modified to look like the newer commercial frames they were wanting to/or had already transitioned to.
Just one more thing for me to keep an eye out for, but to be honest I usually don't let too many M1917 examples escape my inspection so that's why your example seems a bit unusual to me. Maybe there are (many) more of them out there?
While we are on this subject does anyone have an example of a Brazilian M1917 example having a WWI era inspected frame that had it's small oval rear sight converted to the later era commercial style larger squared off rear sight similar to the OP's example? Once again the Brazilian M1917 examples typically fall into two categories...........those built with later era commercial frames and those built with WWI era (inspected) frames. Both exhibiting their individual features and I do not recall ever seeing a Brazilian M1917 example built on a WWI era frame modified to have a later era commercial style rear sight.
Dale
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How does it shoot? It looks like a nice gun, whatever it is or when it became what ever it is. Have fun! It seems the research is a large part of the fun!
tenntex32
Member
Here's another thing I found interesting about the OP's revolver......
While the OP's frame is obviously a WWI era inspected frame the serial number on the butt reads with the barrel pointing to the right, similar to my later era commercial model and my Brazilian M1917 built on a later era commercial model frame.
TYPICALLY the post-WWI era commercial models built using leftover WWI era frames had butt serial numbers that read with the barrel pointing to the left. Heck even the post-WWII delivered Brazilian examples built using leftover WWI era frames TYPICALLY have their serial numbers read with barrels pointing to the left. (I've attached a pic of forum member Ray's very fine Brazilian example built on a leftover WWI era frame whose s/n reads with the barrel to the left. I've also attached a pic of my later era commercial M1917 example with the butt serial number reading with the barrel to the right, similar to the OP's example.)
So this also leads me to believe the rear sight modification on the OP's example may be a factory legit modification if they also saw fit to serialize the butt in a manner similar to what we would expect to find on later era commercial framed examples, and still opposite of what we would expect to find on earlier commercial models utilizing leftover WWI era frames.
All very curious to me.
While the OP's frame is obviously a WWI era inspected frame the serial number on the butt reads with the barrel pointing to the right, similar to my later era commercial model and my Brazilian M1917 built on a later era commercial model frame.
TYPICALLY the post-WWI era commercial models built using leftover WWI era frames had butt serial numbers that read with the barrel pointing to the left. Heck even the post-WWII delivered Brazilian examples built using leftover WWI era frames TYPICALLY have their serial numbers read with barrels pointing to the left. (I've attached a pic of forum member Ray's very fine Brazilian example built on a leftover WWI era frame whose s/n reads with the barrel to the left. I've also attached a pic of my later era commercial M1917 example with the butt serial number reading with the barrel to the right, similar to the OP's example.)
So this also leads me to believe the rear sight modification on the OP's example may be a factory legit modification if they also saw fit to serialize the butt in a manner similar to what we would expect to find on later era commercial framed examples, and still opposite of what we would expect to find on earlier commercial models utilizing leftover WWI era frames.
All very curious to me.
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tenntex32
Member
I know my posts have been considerably lengthy with regards to the OP's example, and for that I apologize, but if any forum members have similar commercial M1917 or Brazilian M1917 examples built on a WWI era frames exhibiting later era commercial frame traits please speak up and provide additional pics or links.
Thanks in advance,
Dale
Thanks in advance,
Dale
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Dale,
I don't find it inconceivable that possibly all the WWI frames were not in the same state of completion. The gov't pulled the plug on 1917 production with ~7300 frames not assembled into completed guns, and who's to say they were all in the same state of completion. Perhaps S&W used up the completely machined frames first. Then by change order of Oct 17, 1927 when the new sq notch rear sight was officially ordered, they may have been down to incomplete machined frames, finished machining them including the new rear sight and flat top strap. The few frames left had the rear sight re-machined, and used them up.
And I did find this statement in my 1917 notes: "Later assembled frames with earlier #s in the military range but previously unused, have been observed with flat top strap and square notch rear sight; example #113934."
Just my theorizing.
I don't find it inconceivable that possibly all the WWI frames were not in the same state of completion. The gov't pulled the plug on 1917 production with ~7300 frames not assembled into completed guns, and who's to say they were all in the same state of completion. Perhaps S&W used up the completely machined frames first. Then by change order of Oct 17, 1927 when the new sq notch rear sight was officially ordered, they may have been down to incomplete machined frames, finished machining them including the new rear sight and flat top strap. The few frames left had the rear sight re-machined, and used them up.
And I did find this statement in my 1917 notes: "Later assembled frames with earlier #s in the military range but previously unused, have been observed with flat top strap and square notch rear sight; example #113934."
Just my theorizing.
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tenntex32
Member
Jim I agree with the various states of completion theory, unfortunately I just haven't seen a commercial M1917 built on a WWI era frame with later era commercial rear sight until now. (And we must not forget the many post-WWII revolvers shipped to Brazil using found/leftover/rejected WWI era M1917 frames and parts that did not get the later style rear sight modification.)
This begs the question..........how many (or how few) are there if this is the first I've seen in over 10 years of collecting, scouring shows and shops, as well as being an online M1917 pic junkie?
I wonder if S&W kept detailed enough records to state whether or not a commercial (or Brazilian) M1917 frame was leftover WWI era or later commercial era.........and on top of that if the frame was a WWI era frame and in a rather incomplete state prior to being completed/machined to look like a later era commercial frame?
This is why I find the OP's example rather interesting. I only deal with what I know, and what I know is what I have seen or can see. I am trying not to deal in a rough generality here but possibly we may never know if a great many or a great few were produced on a similar fashion as the OP's?
While I am fully aware of the fact that I have not personally inspected each and every commercial model M1917 this is the very first I have seen in a configuration such as the OP's out of the many I have looked at. Thus my request for actual confirmation of others that may be out there............so post'em if you got'em please.
Hopefully many more will turn up and increase my hopes of someday adding one to my meager M1917 collection!
Thanks,
Dale
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tenntex32
Member
Let me put it another way, numbers wise............
Colt only made somewhere between 1000 to 1500 Civilian Model of 1917 revolvers (depending upon whose numbers you believe)........of which I am so utterly fortunate to own 3 of at the moment. (Nothing crazy expensive, right place, right time, luck, etc....they are actually barrel marked "COLT MODEL 1917 .45 AUTO. CTGE.")
And I still see them pop up on the radar every so often.
Once again, the OP's is the first such configured commercial S&W M1917 I have actually seen........not that that actually means a whole heckuva a lot. Maybe there are many many more of them and we just don't see the detailed pics of them online? I know I have yet to physically hold one in my hands.
Colt only made somewhere between 1000 to 1500 Civilian Model of 1917 revolvers (depending upon whose numbers you believe)........of which I am so utterly fortunate to own 3 of at the moment. (Nothing crazy expensive, right place, right time, luck, etc....they are actually barrel marked "COLT MODEL 1917 .45 AUTO. CTGE.")
And I still see them pop up on the radar every so often.
Once again, the OP's is the first such configured commercial S&W M1917 I have actually seen........not that that actually means a whole heckuva a lot. Maybe there are many many more of them and we just don't see the detailed pics of them online? I know I have yet to physically hold one in my hands.
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tenntex32
Member
Jim,
Can you clarify this statement please, as I just can't wrap my head around exactly what you are trying to get across. Please be very specific. (It seems to be implying there may have been very early M1917 WWI contract examples that do not have the "US Army Model of 1917" marking, nor the GHS or the flaming ordnance bomb markings on the upper left frame.......?)
Maybe the toxic fumes from the many chemicals we use on aircraft are catching up to me.............
My early 4-digit S&W M1917 example has the butt marking and GHS stamp as expected.
Thanks,
Dale
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tenntex32
Member
I also meant to add..........I also wonder about the possibility of it being a Brazilian M1917.
If it were to be a Brazilian example built on a leftover WWI era M1917 frame that was made to look like the later era commercial frame Brazilian M1917 examples then I wonder about it being delivered right alongside the other pre-WWII delivered Brazilian examples and made in a similar looking fashion as them.
Typically we associate the post-WWII Brazilian made examples built on leftover/rejected WWI era frames as being sold to the Brazilians at a really good deal price and were simply assembled in the original WWI military M1917 style.
Many questions abound without that factory letter first telling us what it actually is and when it actually left the factory.
The sideplate does look heavily refinished to me so it could be a very viable possibilty. I would still wonder why we don't see more of them though as many surplus Brazilian examples were dumped on the U.S. market.
Maybe you guys can have a look at your commercial and Brazilian M1917 examples with the later era commercial frame rear sight style and tell us what you find?
If it were to be a Brazilian example built on a leftover WWI era M1917 frame that was made to look like the later era commercial frame Brazilian M1917 examples then I wonder about it being delivered right alongside the other pre-WWII delivered Brazilian examples and made in a similar looking fashion as them.
Typically we associate the post-WWII Brazilian made examples built on leftover/rejected WWI era frames as being sold to the Brazilians at a really good deal price and were simply assembled in the original WWI military M1917 style.
Many questions abound without that factory letter first telling us what it actually is and when it actually left the factory.
The sideplate does look heavily refinished to me so it could be a very viable possibilty. I would still wonder why we don't see more of them though as many surplus Brazilian examples were dumped on the U.S. market.
Maybe you guys can have a look at your commercial and Brazilian M1917 examples with the later era commercial frame rear sight style and tell us what you find?
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OP
Frankenstein
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Oh, it shoots really well! I've only put maybe 30 rounds through it so far as I really want to put together some lighter loads than the ones I made for my 1911's and Glocks. No need to run a slide. The ones I have already are not hot by any means, but then they are not light either.
That's exactly the way I took his meaning.
OP
Frankenstein
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OK. Removed sideplate.
Assembly number does match. Attached are 3 pics.
First shows assembly number.
Second shows the whole sideplate.
Third is a picture of the action (or is the correct term lockwork?) in case that helps you guys narrow in on the date.
No other parts found riding in the sideplate.
When I look at the outer surface of the sideplate closely, it is clear that it had some pitting that was blued over. But there is absolutely no trace at all of a crest. Not discounting the Brazilian theory altogether, but it would just seem that if someone went to the effort to remove the crest so completely, without causing any 'waves', they would have taken the 5 minutes and removed the pitted part too?
Assembly number does match. Attached are 3 pics.
First shows assembly number.
Second shows the whole sideplate.
Third is a picture of the action (or is the correct term lockwork?) in case that helps you guys narrow in on the date.
No other parts found riding in the sideplate.
When I look at the outer surface of the sideplate closely, it is clear that it had some pitting that was blued over. But there is absolutely no trace at all of a crest. Not discounting the Brazilian theory altogether, but it would just seem that if someone went to the effort to remove the crest so completely, without causing any 'waves', they would have taken the 5 minutes and removed the pitted part too?
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tenntex32
Member
It looks as though your sideplate also has the pre-WWII style hammer block spring built into it. (It was incorporated to prevent the revolver from firing if dropped on the hammer or if the hammer was whacked while wearing it, etc....
If you install the sideplate, barely pull the hammer back, and shine a flashlight down on it looking from the top of the hammer channel you will see it is slightly in the way of the hammer and moves further out of the way to the right as you pull the hammer back. This was also the hammer block style used on most of the WWII Victory examples until replaced by a more positive bar style hammer block later in the war. On the Victory model the earlier style hammer block (similar to your M1917 example's) was found to break or provide insufficient hammer blockage if dropped on the hammer, thus allowing the revolver to fire.
The original military M1917 examples did not have either hammer block safety style and maybe someone can verify if their early commercial example(s) built on leftover military M1917 frames have it.......and maybe someone with a post-WWII Brazilian built on a military frame can see if has it incorporated or not.
When I look at my commercial model M1917 and my Brazilian M1917, both built with a later era commercial frames, they both have the same style hammer block as yours.
So yet again you have WWI era frame that has been fitted with the later era sideplate with hammer block safety and a tapered hand allowing to allow for the operation of the hammer block safety.
I've attached a pic of a WWI era U.S. M1917 sideplate not having the hammer block safety. Also I've attached a pic of the internals from the same WWI era U.S. M1917 revolver showing the hand is not tapered as yours is as there was no need for it on my example due to it not ever having the hammer block safety.
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StrawHat
Member
I have a few 1917s that fall into the categories mentioned, Military, Commercial, and Brazilian. I will check them over when I get the chance and let you know what I find.
Kevin
Kevin
OP
Frankenstein
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From everyone's responses, It does seem that this may have been a frame and barrel that was part done during WWI and put away somewhere, maybe put in the 'wrong place' in the factory.
Later it is found and they think 'waste not, want not' and use it to make another gun. But by that time, the processes for the next steps such as milling the sight, fitting a side plate and finally applying the S/N have been updated.
Or... Maybe Johnny Cash's pappy worked at S&W and stole it one piece at a time
Later it is found and they think 'waste not, want not' and use it to make another gun. But by that time, the processes for the next steps such as milling the sight, fitting a side plate and finally applying the S/N have been updated.
Or... Maybe Johnny Cash's pappy worked at S&W and stole it one piece at a time
tenntex32
Member
Or... Maybe Johnny Cash's pappy worked at S&W and stole it one piece at a time
We have to be very careful with the "lunchbox" M1917 moniker. They are rumored to be out there, especially after the takeover of the factory by the U.S. government.
Unfortunately if such "lunchbox" examples do exist it isn't something I have ever heard of S&W confirming as a possible explanation in a factory letter, other historical documents, etc......
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tenntex32
Member
I have never even heard of such a thing as a legit U.S. military S&W M1917 without the upper left frame inspector stamp, expected ARMY butt markings, etc, much less seen one.
Can you confirm with Roy? If so do we have access to more info, pics, etc.?
Thanks,
Dale
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junglefighter
US Veteran
WOW!! What a read. There is so much knowledge and information here that I had to reread again to try and completely gasp all the info. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this amazing post.
Owner confirming stolen property
I don't see how S&W could confirm something stolen one piece at a time. The thief would go to great lengths to avoid the owner being able to confirm it. Finally, if they could that would not fare well with government contractors. If the owner caught someone they would not be able to know how many others were out there floating around the black market !!?!
I don't see how S&W could confirm something stolen one piece at a time. The thief would go to great lengths to avoid the owner being able to confirm it. Finally, if they could that would not fare well with government contractors. If the owner caught someone they would not be able to know how many others were out there floating around the black market !!?!
