Initials on Victory .38

[fourb20]

I have what I believe to be a Victory model .38S&W, 5" w/lanyard s/n V7115xx. It has markings on the left side of the barrrel of, .38 767" and 3 1/2 tons. Also on the left side is a crown and the letters, "BNP" On the backstrap is stamped,
"RH 203" Anyone have an idea what all that means? There are no US military markings.

 

[DWalt]

I have what I believe to be a Victory model .38S&W, 5" w/lanyard s/n V7115xx. It has markings on the left side of the barrrel of, .38 767" and 3 1/2 tons. Also on the left side is a crown and the letters, "BNP" On the backstrap is stamped,
"RH 203" Anyone have an idea what all that means? There are no US military markings.

I can't answer the question about the meaning of RH 203. There are many things it could be, so I will leave that to someone else who knows the answer. You have a .38/200 British Service Revolver (Victory model).

.38 767" and 3 1/2 tons is a proof stamping. .38 is the caliber, .767" is the cartridge case length, and 3 1/2 tons is the chamber pressure of the proof load (about 8000 psi). These markings are normally found on revolvers sold "out of service" i.e., those declared surplus and sold off. British law required proofing before they can be sold on the commercial market. There will also be a marking as to where the proof testing was done, either Birmingham or London. The marking with the letters "BNP" means Birmingham Nitro Proof.

SN V7115xx would indicate probable shipping from the factory in October 1944.

 

[ordnanceguy]

On the backstrap is stamped,
"RH 203" Anyone have an idea what all that means?

Yes, I do. Markings on the back strap (usually above the stocks) of .38-200 Victory revolvers are typically unit markings. The "RH" marking usually refers to the Royal Highland Regiment, the storied "Black Watch". The "203" marking is most likely an inventory or rack number. Thus, based upon these markings it seems probable that your revolver was, at one time, on strength with the Black Watch, a distinguished regiment which saw action during WW2 in the ETO, Burma and in the Middle East.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

 

[fourb20]

Thank you both for the information, makes the gun a little more interesting.

 

[PJGP]

Markings on the back strap (usually above the stocks) of .38-200 Victory revolvers are typically unit markings.

Charlie, whilst you are quite correct that RH was the abreviation for the Black Watch, I do not believe that unit markings were normally put on Second World War handguns. Certainly I have yet to see a unit marking on any Enfield or S&W .38.

Boer War era Webleys are another story of course; these very frequently carry Imperial or (as seen in this country) South African unit markings. Indeed I have a Mark I marked to the New South Wales Government (NSWG); Australian troops fought here.

Peter

 

[Waidmann]

I would be more inclined to guess Rhine-Hessen and it was one seconded to occupation era German Police.

 

[JP@AK]

I would be more inclined to guess Rhine-Hessen and it was one seconded to occupation era German Police.

According to a recent article in the American Rifleman, the Office of Military Government in Hessen "abbreviated the name Hessen to RE" and war surplus revolvers assigned to its jurisdiction were marked on the backstrap as either H-M for use by municipal police (Stadt Polizei) or H-R for use by the rural police (Landespolizei)

 

[JSR III]

My vote would be that Charlie is correct.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Charlie, whilst you are quite correct that RH was the abreviation for the Black Watch, I do not believe that unit markings were normally put on Second World War handguns. Certainly I have yet to see a unit marking on any Enfield or S&W .38.
Peter

Hello Peter:

Just noticed your reply to this old thread. I agree that unit markings were not normally used during WW2. However, I will say that early in WW2 the practice of unit marking small arms was still occasionally seen. By mid-war the practice seems to have been dropped altogether.

Here are a couple of examples, the first being a 6 inch .38 S&W BSR which bears Canadian property marks and a unit marking above the back strap. Photo credit to HSGuy.

The second quick example is an Enfield .38-200 revolver with what I think are Royal Artillery unit markings. Photo credit Bruce HMX



Since unit markings are not often seen on WW2 era Smiths they are all the more interesting when encountered.

 

[opoefc]

All I can add to this thread is that I have seen several BSRs with various markings that I believe were unit marks and inventory numbers. I'm currently holding a BSR with the added "Suncorite" finish (Thick black paint as applied to stoves, etc. pre WW2) ) and has an inventory number painted on the black surface with white paint. Supposition is that these BSRs with the Suncorite finish were issued to Home Guard units. I also agree with Charlie's comment that the unit marks, etc. were mostly in the early years of the war and as British military units were transferred from area to area and mixed with other units sometimes, the unit markings became non essential for small arms. Ed.

 

[PJGP]

The second quick example is an Enfield .38-200 revolver with what I think are Royal Artillery unit markings. Photo credit Bruce HMX

Hello Charlie. Do you know what vintage the Enfield is? It has its hammer spur, which points to pre-WWII. Alan David's post today reinforces my belief that unit markings were a thing of the past by WWII, at least in British service.

Peter

 

[Absalom]

......
The second quick example is an Enfield .38-200 revolver with what I think are Royal Artillery unit markings. Photo credit Bruce HMX


......

On this Enfield, another possibility is that the letters RAF are meant to go together.

In respect to .38 Webleys and Enfields of WW II vintage, what one comes scross as far as service markings, rack numbers etc. are concerned tends to be rather inelegantly simply painted on the frame rather than stamped.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Charlie. Do you know what vintage the Enfield is? It has its hammer spur, which points to pre-WWII. Alan David's post today reinforces my belief that unit markings were a thing of the past by WWII, at least in British service. Peter

Hi Peter:

These photos were taken by Bruce HMX, who was an active member of our Forum here at one time. I believe that the Royal Artillery marked Enfield is the one shown below at the bottom.

Here is another unit marked Enfield No. 2 Mk 1, this one being a Royal Tank Corps (RTC) example. Photo credit BreakyP.



Both of the Enfields shown were manufactured before the start of WW2 so I suppose it possible that the markings were applied before the War's start.

I certainly respect your views on this subject and those of AlanD and I bow to your superior knowledge of British and Empire small arms.

However, if the practice of applying unit markings did not exist at all in WW2 how does one explain: (1) the markings on the original poster's WW2 BSR, (2) the markings on the Canadian property BSR posted above, and (3) the presence of the metal "marking discs" used on Enfield .38-200 revolver stocks manufactured throughout WW2 for application of unit marks, as seen in the image below?

 

[PJGP]

Hello Charlie. Do you know what vintage the Enfield is? It has its hammer spur, which points to pre-WWII.

Looking more closely Charlie, I see that the stock plates are the first (chequered) type. So the unit markings probably date from the early 1930s.

 

[Absalom]

To throw another data point into the discussion, here is a Pre-Victory BSR #7675xx (I don't have it), where the "Österreich Polizei" overstamped the Enfield marks below the broad arrow.

Charlie, is this one in the database?

There are backstrap stampings present which I do not believe to be of Austrian post-war origin; at least I have not come up with anything German that would make sense. Known Austrian backstrap markings like the Gendarmerie-Kommando look quite distinctly different (Photo credit to niner19)

16 BW 7??, the last symbols could be 45 or 4F?

If these should indeed be British unit markings, maybe Black Watch? That would of course be the same as RH, Royal Highlanders.