Installed the Apex Spring Kit -Model 60 J Frame

[Hearsedriver]

I just finished installing the Apex J-frame spring kit which includes a mainspring, rebound spring, firing pin, and firing pin spring. Before the installation, I had a 3 lb. SA trigger pull and a 13 lb. DA pull. After installation, the SA pull is 1 3/4 lb. adn the DA is around 10 lbs. I'm not real happy with the SA pull as it is a little scary. The DA pull has a really gritty feel to it upon rebound but , if I do a quick release of my finger, it feels pretty good and is much easier to pull. I think I will re-install my stock rebound spring to see if the SA pull comes back up a little adn to see what affect it has on the DA pull. Overall, Im not that happy with the performance of this kit but, will report back later.
Who here has installed this kit and what were your thoughts? Cliff

 

[tomcatt51]

The gritty feel isn't the spring kit, the lighter springs just let you better feel what you had to start with. Heavy springs hide a lot. Have you stoned the rebound slide?

A duty/carry gun is meant to be shot DA. Cocking the hammer to shoot it SA is called a mistake in the making.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Yes, I stoned and polished the rebound slide. Did not know that about a carry/duty gun. maybe it is working as it should be.

 

[Tyrod]

I just finished installing the Apex J-frame spring kit which includes a mainspring, rebound spring, firing pin, and firing pin spring. Before the installation, I had a 3 lb. SA trigger pull and a 13 lb. DA pull. After installation, the SA pull is 1 3/4 lb. adn the DA is around 10 lbs. I'm not real happy with the SA pull as it is a little scary. The DA pull has a really gritty feel to it upon rebound but , if I do a quick release of my finger, it feels pretty good and is much easier to pull. I think I will re-install my stock rebound spring to see if the SA pull comes back up a little adn to see what affect it has on the DA pull. Overall, Im not that happy with the performance of this kit but, will report back later.
Who here has installed this kit and what were your thoughts? Cliff

I will be adding 2 model 60s to this test by the end of next week. The real question is whether you "need" that expensive firing pin & spring and wouldn't more rebound spring options be nice.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/217864-great-american-j-frame-spring-test.html

 

[tomcatt51]

Yes, I stoned and polished the rebound slide. Did not know that about a carry/duty gun. maybe it is working as it should be.

Try shooting it with carry ammo and see how it is. You'll get a more realistic idea. I think the best thing you can do on a revolver you're carrying is bob the hammer. It removes temptation aside from not catching on everything it can. I make mine DAO by grinding the SA notch off the hammer. Learn to shoot it DA. There's a good reason LE went to DAO revolvers then (mostly) DAO or DA first shot semi-autos.

Look at the rebound slide and hammer with the sideplate off. You'll see a "nub" on the rebound slide and hammer that are in contact (they hold the hammer back slightly) when the trigger is fully forward. Take a fine stone and smooth the top of the nubs and the corner that engages as the rebound slide comes forward and moves the hammer back. With the sideplate off and the mainspring removed (hold the hammer forward with your thumb) watch how the rebound slide moves the hammer back at the end of the trigger return and you'll see why.

On the trigger where it engages the cylinder stop you'll see the "nub" that actually engages the stop. It will have square corners. Take a fine stone and just barely break those square corners. Don't get carried away, you can screw up the stop release timing. I use a fine ceramic stone. Smoothing the corners and the hammer / rebound slide nubs will help your trigger return.

 

[tomcatt51]

The real question is whether you "need" that expensive firing pin & spring.

I you have an MIM J frame with the .485" factory firing pin (and there's a bunch of them) and you want a reliable bang instead of a click, the answer is yes. Applies to the guns with the firing pin retaining pin under the sideplate, not the ones with the external cross pin. They use a different firing pin.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I appreciate the advise! I tinkered with it all afternoon and discovered that with the sideplate removed, the DA action was much smoother. Upon inspection, I found there was a fair amount of roughness on the slideplate which I smoothed up. I did the trigger mod per Tomcatt and everything feels much better. I will leave the Apex springs in place until I have a chance to shoot it at the range next week and report back.

 

[Tyrod]

I you have an MIM J frame with the .485" factory firing pin (and there's a bunch of them) and you want a reliable bang instead of a click, the answer is yes. Applies to the guns with the firing pin retaining pin under the sideplate, not the ones with the external cross pin. They use a different firing pin.

Well, after firing about 1000 rounds with 3 different spring kits in 2 different guns, all without APEXs firing pin, I've yet to have a failure to fire. So...with the scientific proof in my report, I'd say the firing pin in the APEX kit is a waste of money.

Let's see:
Apex kit $24.95, 1 poor rebound spring, 1 decent mainspring and a firing pin w/spring ya don't need.
Wilson Combat kit $8.95, 3 rebound springs in different weights, all better than the lame APEX rebound spring and one excellent mainspring.
Wolff Kit $9.00, 3 rebound springs in different weights, 1 decent mainspring.

And if you find that after installing a Wilson or Wolff kit that you are having misfires then you can still buy just the firing pin w/spring from APEX for $14.99 and you'll have saved a dollar overall and had the choice of 3 rebound springs.

I don't know how long Wilson has been selling J frame spring kits but I know Wolff has been selling J frame spring kits for years and years and I don't hear of a lot of folks with misfire problems.

The facts are that if you keep your DA pull above 8lbs you won't have any problems with misfires. It is very hard to get your trigger pull down to 8lbs, you certainly can't with just a common spring kit.

But hey, it's your money, spend it how you will.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Tyrod, which (lb.) Wolff rebound spring did you end up going with? I have a 13, 14, adn 15 lb. spring kit.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I feel like the Apex rebound spring is too weak. I went back and installed thwe original factory RB spring and the SA pull went up to 3 lbs. I then started to experiment with Wolff rebound spring and found the 15 lb. to work the best in this gun. It put the SA pull at 2 1/2 lbs and produces a very smooth rebound on the DA pull. Im sure every gun is different but, this feels good to me.

 

[tomcatt51]

Well, after firing about 1000 rounds with 3 different spring kits in 2 different guns, all without APEXs firing pin, I've yet to have a failure to fire. So...with the scientific proof in my report, I'd say the firing pin in the APEX kit is a waste of money.

You've also done a good job of avoiding the question of having a gun with a short "new style" firing pin. "Works with all modern* centerfire J-Frame revolvers with the frame mounted firing pin." from APEX description. That would be the MIM guns with the "new style" firing pin. Maybe you missed that?

The older FMFP J frames with the external firing pin retaining pin (NOT the one hidden under the side plate) use a different firing pin. Maybe you missed that also?

I won't carry a J frame with a "new style" .485" stock pin even with stock springs but you know best.

 

[Tyrod]

You've also done a good job of avoiding the question of having a gun with a short "new style" firing pin. "Works with all modern* centerfire J-Frame revolvers with the frame mounted firing pin." from APEX description. That would be the MIM guns with the "new style" firing pin. Maybe you missed that?

The older FMFP J frames with the external firing pin retaining pin (NOT the one hidden under the side plate) use a different firing pin. Maybe you missed that also?

I won't carry a J frame with a "new style" .485" stock pin even with stock springs but you know best.

tomcatt51,
I don't want to get into a urinating contest with you. I'd rather hash this out in a friendly debate rather than a hateful arguement. My objective going into my tests was exactly to find out the virtues of the APEX kit. When I see 2 well respected and recognised companies selling spring kits for about 9 bucks and another I've barely heard of selling their's for 2 1/2 times the cost, the alarms started going off. The J frames I had on hand, at the time, were a 442 pre mim (vintage 1994), a 642 mim (vintage 2011) and a 317 mim (vintage 2011). All with frame mounted firing pins. The results speak for themselves. I found 1 part of the APEX kit to be acceptable and that was the mainspring and only in one gun. I found the APEX rebound spring to very lazy. In the only gun that I had with an exposed hammer, the 317, I didn't like it at all. SA pull was down to around 1lb. I substitued the 13lb Wilson spring and DA pull went up like 1/4lb and DA pull increased to 2 1/2lb. It felt was much much better.

The second element of this debate is the firing pin and that's the component of the APEX kit that makes it so expensive. All I can say is that in my firing tests included in the test which numbered 200 rounds officially for testing purposes on both tests, I did not have one failure to fire with either gun. Since then I've fired these guns a lot more and I still haven't had any failures to fire. I've used many brands including Blazer Brass with CCI primers and my own reloads with CCI primers. I never installed the APEX firing pin in any of these guns.

If you think my experiment is questionable because of the database of guns is inadequate, I would agree. That is about to remedied though with a BNIB model 60 (vintage 2011) and an old model 60 no dash (vintage unknown). By the end of next week I'll have new numbers posted with more valid results.

So, I hope I've answered your questions about the frame mounted firing pins. The 642 and the 317 both have the firing pin under the side plate. Altough, the 317 doesn't count because it's 22lr. The 442 has the retaining pin outside the side plate.

My question to you is. Have you tried any of your mim guns with the firing pin retaining pin under the side plate with any kit without the APEX firing pin and had failures to fire?

"Works with all modern* centerfire J-Frame revolvers with the frame mounted firing pin." from APEX description. That would be the MIM guns with the "new style" firing pin. Maybe you missed that?

Is that your own personal definition? Seems to me my modern (1994 built) with forged internals and frame mounted firing pin with exterior firing pin retainer pin would qualify! Or is this just more of APEX's marketing strategy? APEX doen't say MIM, you did. Not to say anything about having a firing pin too long and possibly piercing primers.

P.S. Do you work for APEX or something?

 

[Tyrod]

Tyrod, which (lb.) Wolff rebound spring did you end up going with? I have a 13, 14, adn 15 lb. spring kit.

I used the 13lb spring.

 

[tomcatt51]

tomcatt51,
The second element of this debate is the firing pin

If you think my experiment is questionable because of the database of guns is inadequate, I would agree.

So, I hope I've answered your questions about the frame mounted firing pins. .

My question to you is. Have you tried any of your mim guns with the firing pin retaining pin under the side plate with any kit without the APEX firing pin and had failures to fire?

Seems to me my modern (1994 built) with forged internals and frame mounted firing pin with exterior firing pin retainer pin would qualify!

APEX could have better defined "modern" for those who don't realize the MIM CNC'ed FMFP guns are the "modern" gun.

I have no affiliation with APEX.

You seem to be un-willing to tell how long the firing pin is in your "modern" FMFP gun. S&W went back to the ~.495" firing pins after issues with the "short ones". Only measuring will tell which you have and if it could be an issue.

The older FMFP is different and does not interchange with the "modern" one.

Yes, I have had issues with the short S&W firing pins in MIM guns.

You seem to have a real issue with APEX including a firing pin to remedy that issue. They seem to be, at worst, guilty of not defining a "modern" FMFP gun well enough for the "un-knowing". Seems they might just be making sure your "modern" "duty/carry" gun goes bang reliabley. You might ask Wilson and Wolff if they endorse their spring kits as being suitable for "duty/carry".

What makes you think a .500" firing pin might be too long and cause pierced primers? Is this based on your experience?

If you want to check the length of your "modern" FMFP gun. If you find it's a long one,~.495", I'll send you a "short" one for your "test". I have two. They're the tapered tip version. Best example of a problematic "short" pin would the rounded tip version but I don't seem to have kept any.

It's easy to disagree about rebound springs. How much rebound spring you "need" varies depending on if you get your finger off the trigger or rely on the trigger to push your finger forward. The requirements are also different firing the gun (and hitting something) vs playing with it seeing how fast you can cycle it sitting on the couch.

If you want a short firing pin for your "test" PM me your address.

 

[Tyrod]

APEX could have better defined "modern" for those who don't realize the MIM CNC'ed FMFP guns are the "modern" gun.

I have no affiliation with APEX.

You seem to be un-willing to tell how long the firing pin is in your "modern" FMFP gun. S&W went back to the ~.495" firing pins after issues with the "short ones". Only measuring will tell which you have and if it could be an issue.

The older FMFP is different and does not interchange with the "modern" one.

Yes, I have had issues with the short S&W firing pins in MIM guns.

You seem to have a real issue with APEX including a firing pin to remedy that issue. They seem to be, at worst, guilty of not defining a "modern" FMFP gun well enough for the "un-knowing". Seems they might just be making sure your "modern" "duty/carry" gun goes bang reliabley. You might ask Wilson and Wolff if they endorse their spring kits as being suitable for "duty/carry".

What makes you think a .500" firing pin might be too long and cause pierced primers? Is this based on your experience?

If you want to check the length of your "modern" FMFP gun. If you find it's a long one,~.495", I'll send you a "short" one for your "test". I have two. They're the tapered tip version. Best example of a problematic "short" pin would the rounded tip version but I don't seem to have kept any.

It's easy to disagree about rebound springs. How much rebound spring you "need" varies depending on if you get your finger off the trigger or rely on the trigger to push your finger forward. The requirements are also different firing the gun (and hitting something) vs playing with it seeing how fast you can cycle it sitting on the couch.

If you want a short firing pin for your "test" PM me your address.

APEX could have better defined "modern" for those who don't realize the MIM CNC'ed FMFP guns are the "modern" gun.

So, you're saying my 1994 J frame is what? An antique gun? The goes far beyond the pale when they could have just said MIM guns.

You seem to be un-willing to tell how long the firing pin is in your "modern" FMFP gun. S&W went back to the ~.495" firing pins after issues with the "short ones". Only measuring will tell which you have and if it could be an issue.

Before I can answer a question, first it must be asked. I'm not trying to hide anything. As I said earlier the one and only revolver that fits your's and apparently APEX's decription of a "modern centerfire revolver" is my brand new 642-1. As I explained in the text of my report, the APEX spring is .0125" longer than the one in my 642. So then, my firing pin is .4875". Hmmmm, I guess that would be one of the short ones.

The older FMFP is different and does not interchange with the "modern" one.

Yes, I have had issues with the short S&W firing pins in MIM guns.

And what exactly would those issues have been. Rather than dance around the question just answer it. HAVE YOU HAD FAILURES TO FIRE WITHOUT THE APEX FIRING PIN?

You seem to have a real issue with APEX including a firing pin to remedy that issue. They seem to be, at worst, guilty of not defining a "modern" FMFP gun well enough for the "un-knowing". Seems they might just be making sure your "modern" "duty/carry" gun goes bang reliabley. You might ask Wilson and Wolff if they endorse their spring kits as being suitable for "duty/carry".

This what Wolff has to say about it:
WARNING - W. C. Wolff Company urges caution when using reduced power hammer or striker springs in firearms, particularly in firearms used for critical applications such as law enforcement. Reduction of the hammer or striker spring may compromise the reliability of the firearm.
I interpret that to mean that it is up to the user to test for reliability.

Neither the Wilson nor APEX site has one word to say about reliability.

What makes you think a .500" firing pin might be too long and cause pierced primers? Is this based on your experience?

I have no experience with a .500" firing pin. Others on the forum have warned about lenghtened firing pins piercing primers. I will concede the point to you.

I'll send you a "short" one for your "test"

Keep your pin, apparently I have one of my own. And I still don't have any failures to fire.

It's easy to disagree about rebound springs. How much rebound spring you "need" varies depending on if you get your finger off the trigger or rely on the trigger to push your finger forward. The requirements are also different firing the gun (and hitting something) vs playing with it seeing how fast you can cycle it sitting on the couch.

If you're trying to imply something, I don't think you want to go there. I've spent hours upon hours at the range, in the last month, specificly testing springs.

According to the statistics I've compiled so far, I don't find the APEX kit to be a very good value. As is alway the disqualifier, your milage may vary. However, If one should buy one of the 2 lesser expensive spring kits and they find they are having failures to fire they can alway buy the APEX or Cylinder & Slide extended firng pins and save money doing so!

Lastly, I respect your gunsmithing abilities. You are probably more knowledgeable about Smiths than I am. However, feelings and intuition and guessing don't make facts. I wanted facts. If you've done any experimentation (with recorded facts) to disprove anything I've recorded and reported I'd be happy to hear them and amend my report to reflect that.