Internet tough guys

NFrameFred

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First off - if you decided to contribute/comment on this I ask you to please stay on topic and not take this to a political place where it will inevitably disappear . . . . .

In light of current events and a few recent discussions here I find it noteworthy to point out that in the Zimmerman case (Martin kid shooting) they are now digging furiously and somewhat successfully to unearth any and all rants, postings, smart remarks, etc. from internet web sites they can track Zimmerman's participation to. And apparently he's posted some things that don't paint a picture helpful to his defense.

I mention this since I have (on more than one occasion) seen folks opine that the 'average person' must be paranoid, crazy, or scared of their own shadow if they think something they post on an internet site would come back to haunt them "as if anyone had the time or would take the trouble to track it down." Well, well . . . guess that answers that one . . .

The ones who tell us this are the fearless types who, from the safety of their keyboards in their mommy's basement (or wherever), post all kinds of tough guy talk about 'what they would do', 'what you should do', how they ' took care of' a similar situation, yada, yada, yada, ad nauseum to the point of making statements that they would likely never make if they were actually in the room with the people they're telling this to. Goes on here quite often, thankfully not as often as on many sites you could point to.

Point is, Zimmerman said some things on line not even posting under his real name that have been tracked down that would fall under the heading of what my old man would have called "letting your mouth overload your rear end".

How all that shakes out in his particular case is for a jury of his peers (that statement should scare you to death in today's society) to decide. To state the obvious, though, his past statements certainly won't help his present situation.

I won't to into further detail but everyone knows the kind of postings we see here I'm talking about, where some bad boy lets everyone know he doesn't care what anyone else thinks/says and what he'd do or say, or why anyone who is careful about such things likely wears his momma's underwear.

Point is, no matter how much you may think you're in the shadows no one is anonymous in this day and age, especially on line. Since this a gun forum, righteous self defense questions and observations are made, and the efficacy of the tools for the job we that shoot and collect for sport is sometimes discussed. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself - it's just when the bluster and ill considered swagger/braggadocio that some bring to the table creeps into it, the above real world example should be an object lesson for those who tend to engage their mouth before their mind is in gear. The topic of the "advertising on tee-shirts" thread is one of the latest examples I recall. I care not what someone else decides they do or do not want to wear. But I think it was Mas Ayoob who once wrote that if he found himself in a position where he had to defend himself with his gun to fatal effect, when the gendarmes showed up to sort things out that he rather not be wearing a shirt that said "Kill 'em all & let God sort 'em out" but something along the lines of "Peace on earth; goodwill toward men". If you truly don't think you'd care about that a year later or more when you're sitting beside your lawyer in a court room while a 'jury of your peers' (there's that phrase again) has days, weeks, or months to dissect and pass judgement on what you had to make a split second decision on, the only one who presently believes that is you.

It takes all kinds and I've known plenty of most of them. It's just 'whistling past the graveyard' to think that if you carry a firearm for self protection that it will never happen to you. But what do I know ? I'm just a 'voice crying in the wilderness' . . . :rolleyes:

YMMV
 
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I agree...

...but in this day and age where everything you say and do is open to scrutiny, no matter what you do, you can be on the losing end. Even if it is written in the form of an official report, I have seen things added to and subtracted from.
Also, such as in the high profile case you mention. Other people will edit whatever you say or do for their own agenda...even if what you said or wrote had little or no bearing on the case at all.
In short, we can only live our lives because if someone targets you, they will do so. And in the age of high tech, even if you have evidence of your innocence in copius amounts, the damage will be done.
Slander, liable, threats are different. But even if you don't make these, creative editing can make it sound like you did and in the court of the media, you're convicted.
 
Knight, can't disagree with much you said, but my point is, if you're known to sit by the fire why hand your enemies a gas can ? They may be out to get you but you don't have to make it easy for them . . . .
 
My best buddy's Mom was a preacher, may still be, and she told me one time that the tongue is a filter for the mind and I believe it to be so. In this day and age of computers maybe that phrase could be amended to read, "the tongue and fingers are filters for the mind".
I got dinged once on here for some kinda political post and that ain't happening again. As far as that dude involved in a shooting in Fla., I just don't care. He may have caused some damage to the image of gun owners but we must all stay focused on responsible gun ownership and the protection of our families and ourselves.
Being careful what you post online is only common sense. Perfect paranoia=perfect awareness in my opinion. Just as you should think before you speak, so should you think before you post.
Peace,
Gordon
 
If it walks like a duck - - -

I know today's styles & fads, especially for some of the younger ones of our society, do the same as the bravado speech of which you point out.

Each of us is unique, I find it curious that so many try to hide in the crowd. In todays open public gatherings, if you don't dress as a gangsta, ninja, commando, or major league ball player, you are the rare individual indeed.

NFrameFred's observations about things said are well taken. I would like to point out also that "wanna be" behaviour too can come back to bight one's buttocks.

We are now seeing the pendulum of self defense rights swing to our favor with many states expanding our concealed carry laws. Just as not all individuals are emotionally suited for firearm possesion, even less are emotionally equiped to exersize the responsibility & restraint required when carrying. Hopefully our gains in personal gun rights won't be lost because of a few high profile cases such as already mentioned.

As for the Z case, I believe all of us need to keep our personal guesses & speculations to a minimum & wait for the legal system to do it's best. I realize the 'jury of his peers' system is not perfect, but I will personally put my trust in it rather than any other system I have seen.

Jim
 
One thing we all learned when I first got hired with the department is that social media sights like Facebook (Myspace at that time) will get you in trouble if you post stupid comments, but I have also heard and have told people that make comments like "if someone pulls a gun I'll.." well you can finish the rest. I have heard Officers make comments about how they wish a certain inmate would try to break into their home so they could take them out of the gene pool so to speak. The point being that what we say and what we post can be used later on against us and that someone, maybe our bosses, maybe an attorney down the line is watching. The old saying of loose lips sinking ships should apply to everything. As far as what Mr Zimmerman said when he said or typed it, well they have been trying to portray him as a racist since day one and it will not help him even if he has no feelings that way, its how this whole case has been perceived and dont think for a second if you or I were involved in a similar case that the DA would not do the same amount of digging.
 
This trial (Zimmerman's) if it occurs, will most probably be a joke made of the justice system as was O.J. Simpson, and The Casey Anthony one.

Big Show for cable news channels, Blogs, etc.

BIG MONEY FOR THE ATTORNEYS.
 
No person that ever lived past a babys age hasnt uttered stupid things. The computer is a good record of stuff we say. When a defense lawyer has big money buying his services to dig stuff up they will find it. Mark furman on the OJ case was asked if he ever had used the "N" word. Of course he said he never had. The defense dug up some woman he had briefly met that swore he told some war story useing the "N" word. That was a huge factor in getting OJ off. Right now on the roger clemens trial they weakend the case against him when they got that guy to be not so sure in what clemens once said by takeing steroids. Throw enough money to a good lawyer to research something and they will find any idle words said to get their client off or to hang someone. Chest beating has got many into trouble.
 
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As a strategy, silence is usually better than noise. But noise is far more satisfying for some people, and people who live in the moment are notoriously incapable of recognizing the potential for personal damage in the future.

Every time I see a swaggering, pushy, self-aggrandizing post on the internet I feel like I should thank the poster for his generosity in giving me what is, under the circumstances, such a large piece of his mind.
 
I have wondered from time to time when all security clearances will require listing of all screen names, much as they did (and still do) of all aliases (AKA).

When that happens, EVERYTHING you have ever said on the net can and will be used against you.
 
NFrame,
I've sat awhile trying to figure out how I can phase my post. I understand the " Internet bravado" thing and I agree that it's way easier to talk tough to a keyboard than to someones face but didn't you just do the same thing accusing someone of wearing their mothers underware and writting from their mother's basement? I'm not trying to start anything but conversation here so I mean no offense.
I can agree that when someone threatens or posts something stating that they would do bodily harm to someone that it can come back and bite them. But the thread you mentioned was about someone wearing a shirt with the S&W logo! I can't believe that the wearing of that particuar tee shirt would be considered offensive by any sane human being. If you believe that the Tee shirt would be used against you by lawyers I'm sure you will agree that the fact that a person is a member of the S&W Forum and posts photographs of handguns and recipes for handloads can also be used against you. The point I'm trying to make is when is anything about guns not contriversial? Why do we have to stay in the shadows? We are law abiding people practicing our 1st and 2nd ammendment rights and we have nothing to be ashamed of. I realize that there are inappropriate tee shirts out there but a S&W logo is certainly not one of them.
I just feel it's important that we as law abiding gun owners don't give in to the anti gun sentiment of the media. I will not feel guilty about owning and enjoying my guns and by the same token I will respect someone's choice to wear any tee shirt they choose to wear.
 
Moonman:

I'm always curious when someone posts, in a situation like this, about the "BIG MONEY FOR THE ATTORNEYS."

What big money and what attorneys will be getting it?

The prosecutors get paid a salary and get the same money whether they are in a trial or doing something in the office.

The single lawyer Zimmerman has (so far) gets either an hourly fee or a fee quoted to cover everything through the trial to the filing of a notice of appeal (if the case goes against Zimmerman). So he doesn't get more money if he wins, at least from the Zimmermans so where would this money come from.

The Zimmerman family apparently are middle-class and there's been some money donated to Zimmerman through an appeal on the 'net.

So, again, what money and what attorneys?

Bob
 
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I agree with Fred's post and take it very much to heart. Unfortunately, I have a history of running my mouth and only sometimes even remembering what I have said. I've noticed that others are very quick to remember for me, especially if they are in one to the many groups I tend to insult. I'm also pretty sure there are files of me in different government agencies due to some organizations of which I was a due paying member. This may sound like paranoia, maybe even bragging to some, but my point is: SAVE YOURSELF, IT'S TOO LATE FOR ME! No, just kidding around, but seriously I have, and continue to, make things to easy for them to hang me. My Dad has my shotgun about 160 miles away because I'm sure to shoot myself in the foot.
 
NFrame,
I've sat awhile trying to figure out how I can phase my post. I understand the " Internet bravado" thing and I agree that it's way easier to talk tough to a keyboard than to someones face but didn't you just do the same thing accusing someone of wearing their mothers underware and writting from their mother's basement? I'm not trying to start anything but conversation here so I mean no offense.

No offense taken - I think you missed the point - what I described using the terms you question was from personal experience - I don't equate it at all. Besides, I think in your haste to jump in perhaps you didn't quite read what I said, particularly the 'underwear' quote. That doesn't square with an "accusation" and you missed context and point. As far as 'writing from their mother's basement', again, from experience I have to say after finding out a bit more about a lot of 'tough talkers' they will say lot's of things striking from a distance that they won't say to someone in person. That's a personal observation.

I can agree that when someone threatens or posts something stating that they would do bodily harm to someone that it can come back and bite them. But the thread you mentioned was about someone wearing a shirt with the S&W logo! I can't believe that the wearing of that particuar tee shirt would be considered offensive by any sane human being. If you believe that the Tee shirt would be used against you by lawyers I'm sure you will agree that the fact that a person is a member of the S&W Forum and posts photographs of handguns and recipes for handloads can also be used against you. The point I'm trying to make is when is anything about guns not contriversial? Why do we have to stay in the shadows? We are law abiding people practicing our 1st and 2nd ammendment rights and we have nothing to be ashamed of. I realize that there are inappropriate tee shirts out there but a S&W logo is certainly not one of them.

Again, you missed the point completely and I'm not talking about wearing a tee shirt with whatever on it. I'm talking about the comments that were made that basically said 'the rest of the world can go to the devil and stick it if they don't like what I'm doing". I was talking about the attitude that one displays by these postings that can demonstrate later that they aren't the type to "let it go" or "forgive and forget" or "live and let live", if you will. Exactly the point in the example (Zimmerman case).
I just feel it's important that we as law abiding gun owners don't give in to the anti gun sentiment of the media. I will not feel guilty about owning and enjoying my guns and by the same token I will respect someone's choice to wear any tee shirt they choose to wear.
Again, it's not about the stupid tee shirt discussion and please let's not re-hash that here. I used that THREAD (not the subject) as ONE example of people making hard case statements. Maybe not the best example since it wasn't about blood and guts, revenge and retribution - just about a fashion statement. I spent little time or thought and just glanced at that thread a time or two while it was active. But I saw folks getting fired up over something inane and making hard case statements on something I personally didn't see the fuss over. My reference at the end to the Mas Ayoob quote was probably ill-advised since when I wrote it I wasn't thinking about tee-shirts, I was thinking about hard case statements that make you look like you're less than concerned about avoiding trouble.
 
I have wondered from time to time when all security clearances will require listing of all screen names, much as they did (and still do) of all aliases (AKA).

When that happens, EVERYTHING you have ever said on the net can and will be used against you.

It probably is already known. They have your IP address, under the Patriot Act they can do anything and everything (perhaps not supposed to ) but how would we know??

All Social Networks are now looked at by many employers. Some even require you to declare which ones you are on and to log in. People have been fired for unacceptable behavior they posted on line. How legal is that????
 
Am absolutely in agreement with Fred's point. I think some (most) people who are gun owners and have considered self-defense have no idea what will happen if they have to shoot someone. I'll be honest in that I had never considered the consequences until I started reading the handgun magazines almost 20 years ago. Massad Ayoob really opened my eyes. People watch TV and the movies and see a cop or citizen shoot a bad guy. They walk away a hero. Heck, the cops don't even take the rest of the day off, they just get congratulated by everyone.:eek: Ain't gonna happen, folks.
With the internet and sites like this, people can say anything they want. Fortunately this one is well monitored (thanks Lee and moderators) but others are not. Some weenie guy or gal can talk with bravado about what they would do if the balloon goes up. It may make them feel tough, but I can guarantee as an investigator if they are in involved in a questionable shooting, all that stuff will come out. Mention has been made of T-shirts and the like being seen as indicative of a persons mind-set. Once again, I agree it can be twisted to paint us in picture that may make us look different than we want. Why give them that to use against us? To me, it's not worth it.
If I'm ever involved in a shooting, and I pray I never am, everything that I have posted here or anywhere should tell law enforcement or plaintiffs counsel I am a responsible, law abiding gun owner. I'm not giving them ammo to use against me.
But that's just me.
Jim
 
NFrame,
I don't think I missed the point . People say things that can come back and haunt them. My point was that I feel that anything can be construed as damaging when lawyers are involved including affiliations with web sites. So where does it end? Again, I don't mean to be argumentative I see and respect what you're saying. I guess I'm just disappointed with the reality of it.
 
I fully agree with NframeFred that we're entering an age where anything you say or write can suddenly be thrown in your face and often twisted to infer that you meant something you didn't. Also, sometimes something written in a moment of frustration can reflect feelings you don't really mean to act upon but can make you look like a real "danger to society" if they're thrown out there for the World to see. So probably, silence is golden.

On the other hand...we always say "if it's time to bury your guns, it's time to be diggin' them up."

That could possibly be paraphrased to "if it's time to keep your silence because anything you say might be used against you in ways you never even suspected, it's probably time to speak out."
 
And here I am, stating for a fact, that I'm not the only person who has posted here to this forum and at least one other using my name/sign on! Just because some forum attributes a statement to me doesn't mean I said it.

Take for instance back in November of 2009. I was scheduled for an early morning stress test. But soon I was on my back on a gurney, getting wheeled all over the hospital getting told I would live less than a year if I didn't have surgery. My guess was the cardiologist had a BMW payment due, or a son in college. Regardless, a series of posts were made from my computer by my oldest son. Posted from my deathbed! Its not like he didn't already have a sign on ID, he just couldn't remember it so he used mine. Big deal. It it gives "deniability".

In all honesty, I don't know what I said 2 years ago. If I hadn't bought the dozen donuts last night, I wouldn't even know what I had for breakfast.
 

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