Interpreting Internet Auction Pictures

[Modified]

I just wanted to start a thread to run through the information that can be gleaned from even bad internet auction pictures. Point out what to look for and why.

It's pretty hard in many cases to know that something is wrong, or a problem, without having had a gun in hand after looking at online pictures. I hope this can save some pain for some people down the line.

Clear evidence a reblue. The cylinder is a different color then the rest of the gun. The hammer/trigger are Blue (should be case colored). The rebound slide pin (just forward the grip there) is polished flat (it should protrude).

Both pins visible here are polished flat, and both should protrude. The fit of the crane to the frame should be tight, but here you can see the edge of the crane was dished in polishing.

Good example of the dishing on the side plate, indicating the side plate was removed before buffing as part of a reblue. The front sight was also buffed so hard as to round it off.

Barrel stampings dished, frame edges rounded, dishing around the screws. This is a good example of a better, but still poor re-finish. Also the stocks have been re-checkered.

Rebound slide pin polished flat, clear refinish. Front sight replaced.

Sideplate dishing on an otherwise nice looking re-finish. The sideplate shouldn't be so distinctly outlined. Also, in person, it is likely you would see a lot of buffing striations on this gun, I believe it probably photographs better then it looks in person.

Over-buffed, excessively polished, refinish. Note the dishing around the rebound slide pin, and the soft, almost melted looking, corners.

Excellent example of dishing around the sideplate, again indicating it was removed before it was (over)buffed in preparation for the re-blue.

Nickel hammer/trigger, a clear indication of a re-finish as they originally came case colored.

 

[fleabus101]

Exc treatise on the refinishes we can see
that stand out..Seams should be hairlines..
not crevices..I also look at cylinder lines.
The cyl recesses should be sharply defined
on orig or exc on exc refinish work..not smeared on excess polishing work..
The pins stump me sometimes. esp front sight pins.. often factory polished depending on the
polisher that day at work..

 

[Absalom]

Very nice round-up.

One area you did not address are the rollmarks and stampings. I always look at those closely. Especially the large sideplate logo with its intricate and relatively thin and shallow web of lines rarely survives any refinish unaffected.

PS: This is what it SHOULD look like

 

[6518John]

My high school had a gun refinishing/smithing project in shop class. The shop teacher was a big gun guy and would buy old M&P's by the bushel basket for the boys to work on. I can only imagine all the abominations they turned out. They could probably fill an entire forum section "Bubba and His Creations." (Perhaps an idea for Lee and the forum).

I saw several of the finished projects. Let's put in this way, Ford's and Turnbull's had no worries.

I did notice a correlation between the shade tree bodymen/mechanics and good refinishing skills. Several of my friends had show-quality hot rods and rat rods.

Excellent thread.

 

[reddog81]

Nice photos. The arrows also help a lot as those not familiar with a refinish are also not familiar with all the terms we take for granted.

 

[Modified]

Very nice round-up.

One area you did not address are the rollmarks and stampings. I always look at those closely. Especially the large sideplate logo with its intricate and relatively thin and shallow web of lines rarely survives any refinish unaffected.

These are just guns that came to my attention this week. I plan on adding to this thread every time I see an example of something that is useful for learning about modifications/refinishes.

If anyone has anything else I'd love it to be added here, and of course if I miss something about a gun I post.

I saw several of the finished projects. Let's put in this way, Ford's and Turnbull's had no worries.

I have to speak up about this. I've seen recent Ford's work and I have to say it's shockingly bad in regards to rounded edges and over buffing. Watching discussions about this of late I'm thinking that at one time Ford's did a very careful job, but that may not be the current practice? Or possibly you have to be very clear about the job you are asking them to do?

Very nice round-up.

One area you did not address are the rollmarks and stampings. I always look at those closely. Especially the large sideplate logo with its intricate and relatively thin and shallow web of lines rarely survives any refinish unaffected.

PS: This is what it SHOULD look like

But should all era guns look like that? I'm pretty sure if you go back a ways a rollmark that looks like that is a sure sign it was added later..


On another note, let me talk about some guns that I have in hand which have pictures which may fool a person, even when looking closely:





This 1917 has been re-finished, if you look closely you will see that the rollmark on the barrel is fainter than it should be. Also inspection markings are gone. The gun does look pretty dang good though (also in person) so I think its a good example of a picture of an old refinish.

Also this picture:



Gives a hint to a further modification on this gun (aside from the target sights having been added). I'm not going to say what it is though as I think people reading this thread may have fun guessing what major modification is shown here.

Here's a triple lock I recently bought, based on these pictures:

One of the main things you can glean from the auction pictures is that it is re-finished. It clearly must be due to the extensive modifications; 1) Removed Hump at the top of the grip, 2) removed material forward the crane, 3) Fitz job, 4) Hammer Bob/Checkering, 5) Trigger grooving, 6) Backstrap Grooving, 7) Sight job, 8) Barrel shortening, 9) rounding off of the butt, 10) expansion of the stock circles (to accommodate the small thumb rest on the left custom grip panel, and on the right just to make it symmetrical)

Despite all this you will note that the pins are all proud and there is no evidence of over buffing.

But if you look at pictures of the gun when I got it in hand:

You will note that the S&W Logo has been buffed, it is not as pronounced as it should be. Which is of course to be expected given the overall modifications made to the gun, but not particularly obvious in the auction pictures.

 

[mrcvs]

A good indication of a refinished Triple Lock revolver is a refinished cam. This component should be case coloured. If blued, nickeled, and/or edges are rounded, the revolver has been refinished. Attached is a photograph of a Target Model Triple Lock revolver with the appropriate cam.

 

[Hondo44]

It's important to note that after WWII factory original finishes included a flat polished rebound slide pin (in front of the left grip).

Also even pre war guns that came with that pin domed are flat polished when factory refinished after WWII to coincide with the post WWII change in protocol.

Front sight pins: in the first half of the 1950's, the factory protocol included flat polished and domed sight pins. There was no logic to it, just a long and slow transition from domed to flat pins.

 

[Modified]

It's important to note that after WWII factory original finishes included a flat polished rebound slide pin (in front of the left grip).

Also even pre war guns that came with that pin domed are flat polished when factory refinished after WWII to coincide with the post WWII change in protocol.

Front sight pins: in the first half of the 1950's, the factory protocol included flat polished and domed sight pins. There was no logic to it, just a long and slow transition from domed to flat pins.

Wasn't it also the policy for some time to add a roll mark to guns that were being re-finished at some point?


Additionally, the topic of Factory Re-Finishes isn't one I feel entirely confident to broach. As a matter of fact based on things you have said recently I've re-evaluated what I thought I knew. Now I am only confident in saying that something is a factory quality re-finish. Even SWHF records of a re-finish only prove that it was done by the service department at one time, not that the current finish on a gun was done at the service department.

I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the notion of people paying a premium because the seller states the finish a gun is currently sporting was applied at the service department.

On this topic I have a gun that is probably worth discussing;



This triple lock was re-finished at the service department, and the records indicate that it was sporting a nickel finish when they blued it in 1940. It shipped blue, so at some point someone nickeled it, then it was put back to rights. It's a good example of a gun that I believe to be sporting the blue finish applied by the service department.



Also, it's a good example of showing how a few re-finishes on a gun can affect the rollmarks, even when the people doing the re-finishing were very good.

 

[bruce5781]

This is usually the first place I look if I have any questions on being re-finished or not.

Sent from my SM-S506DL using Tapatalk

 

[Hondo44]

Wasn't it also the policy for some time to add a roll mark to guns that were being re-finished at some point?


Additionally, the topic of Factory Re-Finishes isn't one I feel entirely confident to broach. As a matter of fact based on things you have said recently I've re-evaluated what I thought I knew. Now I am only confident in saying that something is a factory quality re-finish. Even SWHF records of a re-finish only prove that it was done by the service department at one time, not that the current finish on a gun was done at the service department.

I'm increasingly uncomfortable with the notion of people paying a premium because the seller states the finish a gun is currently sporting was applied at the service department.

Yes, in the early 1970's, pre war guns sent for refinishing at the factory were getting the post war right side frame address rollmark! Roy Jinks put a stop to that.

And yes again; a factory marked gun for factory refinish at one time in the past, doesn't mean the current refinish a gun may be wearing is 'that' factory refinish. As always, close scrutiny is required before a factory refinished price is payed!

 

[Absalom]

Yes, in the early 1970's, pre war guns sent for refinishing at the factory were getting the post war right side frame address rollmark! Roy Jinks put a stop to that.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) was that this happened only to pre-mid-1922 guns which had a blank frame prior to the introduction of the MADE IN U.S.A. marking in that spot. Of course, that would include the TL era.

 

[Hondo44]

I've never been able to confirm that. But you could be precisely right.

My thought is, as you posted, since the front right frame is blank before the mid '22 ordered MADE IN U.S.A. started being rollmarked on frames late '22, early '23.

After that, the rollmark would have to be polished off and I can't see them doing that.

 

[Modified]

Arrows from left to right; Nickeled Hammer/Trigger. Dishing on the sideplate (also obvious dishing on the S&W Logo). Cut barrel (note the lack of a lug). Replaced sight.

 

[Modified]

This is a good one to look at for a variety of reasons. The arrow here points to a feature that dates the modifications ( that I see at a glance: grips, chopped barrel, sights modified, heavy refinish). The sight being a post war sight gives you a pretty good notion this was done probably post 1950's.

Another clue as to something amiss about this gun is the extractor rod. Notice how the barrel is cut out for the old style? Also you can catch a hint that this gun was a British used gun with the buffed out stamp there.

The tell tale sign of a re-finish with a flat rebound slide pin, and if you see again here you can see more military stamps.

 

[Modified]

This one is subtle, but if you look closely you can see signs that the finish is probably not original:

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Caleb, that one is so subtle it is almost original finish. How do you tell the difference?

 

[GM4spd]

A little off topic company wise but on Colt handguns look for s very STRONG VP( Verified Proof) mark! It should be SHARP. Pete

( it's on the front left of the trigger guard) sorry

 

[handejector]

There is some discussion about the originality of the blue on this gun-
I need the help of the Gurus


and I posted this---

Another tip for all you guys-

When a gun is reblued using hot salts like this gun, it is of course first polished. Then, before going into the bluing tank, it is run through a boiling tank of water or other cleaner to remove ANY trace of oil. This gun was not boiled long enough, and some oil wept out of the barrel threads. That weeping oil prevented the salts from reaching the steel at the barrel joint and a tiny strip of steel remains in the white ----

A yoke is made in pieces. There is a joint on the front where the axle is inserted into the arm, shown here on another gun---

More oil leaked out of that joint on the subject gun, again preventing complete bluing--

 

[Llance]

Thank you for this information. While I knew that rounded corners were a sure sign of refinish, you showed me some other things of which I was unaware. Great thread.