inverted HBWC

[hotrod150]

Yup, another thread about inverted (reversed) HBWC's.
A friend of mine gave me an old Feb 1989 issue of Combat Handguns. It had an interesting article written by Ralph Gossard about reverse-loading the HBWC for self-defense. He tried it and found that the bullet was so unstable (due to the center-of-gravity being too far aft) that it tumbled, usually before impact. Think of a badmitten shuttlecock trying to fly backwards. What he came up with to solve this problem was to put a BB shot (.18" diameter) into the now-forward-facing hollow base of the bullet. Worked great but to avoid having the BB "jump the crimp" under recoil, he used a bullet-sizing press to seat the BB into the cavity, then resize the now-bulged bullet to .357". An awful lot of work, but he did get very good results when expansion testing, even at relatively low velocity. The weight of the modified bullets was about 164 grains, he used about 4.0 gr W231 for an estimated velocity of 800 fps or so.

 

[Engineer1911]

A tumbling HBWC bullet offers awesome knockdown power, but don't shoot them at a bullseye match. At 25 yards you will have minute of elephant accuracy, and at 50 yards you better be inside the barn with all the doors shut.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Yup, another thread about inverted (reversed) HBWC's.
A friend of mine gave me an old Feb 1989 issue of Combat Handguns. It had an interesting article written by Ralph Gossard about reverse-loading the HBWC for self-defense. He tried it and found that the bullet was so unstable (due to the center-of-gravity being too far aft) that it tumbled, usually before impact. Think of a badmitten shuttlecock trying to fly backwards. What he came up with to solve this problem was to put a BB shot (.18" diameter) into the now-forward-facing hollow base of the bullet. Worked great but to avoid having the BB "jump the crimp" under recoil, he used a bullet-sizing press to seat the BB into the cavity, then resize the now-bulged bullet to .357". An awful lot of work, but he did get very good results when expansion testing, even at relatively low velocity. The weight of the modified bullets was about 164 grains, he used about 4.0 gr W231 for an estimated velocity of 800 fps or so.

I tested it in the late 60s or early 70s after reading an article. I found clear evidence of tumbling, which I did not like. Whether that makes it a better stopper is not known to me, but it seems like it might. I didn't care for the accuracy issues and abandoned the idea.

 

[2hawk]

I was loading up some 148gr HBWC over 2.6 gr of Clays, and the thought struck me to try it. Surprisingly, I had round holes on target I'd only loaded 6, so no telling if that was just the alignment of the planets or what, but I need to load up some more to see if it was a fluke. Everything I've read says they're going to tumble, so it was certainly not what I expected!

ETA, shooting at 25 yds, and out of a K-38

 

[mikld]

I tried it once or twice in the early 80s. Inaccurate at 30 ft. I also read an extensive article about this load in a gun magazine at that time. Seems the huge hollow point would either clog with clothing and act like a slow solid, or collapse, or tumble. Only a few would preform as thought and they had to be shot straight on, hitting no bones. I quit using them and now my house gun is loaded with 150 gr. plain base wadcutters over a pretty stiff load of W231. Fairly accurate out to 25 yards, and large flat nose (meplat) gives lots of tissue destruction with little/no over penetration (or so I'm thinking as I ain't shot no buglers yet)

 

[Nframecollector]

I loaded some a few years ago. They expand to the size of a half dollar! I loaded them on top of 3 grs. of Bullseye in 38 spl. cases.

 

[Nevada Ed]

There was a great 38 special test done on guns & Ammo
with several types of bullet weights but it is so old that
the names of the bullets tested is no longer over the data........Federal, Speer, Winchester etc..........Bummer.


The gentleman added a 148 backwards to the test and he was very disappointed. It plugged and had minimum penetration.
Even the slowest 125gr Jhp out performed it.

One reason the BBwc is best for SD work, if you select it.

 

[smokey04]

35 years ago I loaded 147 gr. Hollowbase wads for my mother. She lived by herself out in the country. I wish I could remember the load data but I loaded them in .38 Spl. cases to be shot in her Ruger Security Six, .357. I had written the load data on the boxes but ,dear ol' mom had a better plan. I called it a red neck speed loader. She dumped all of the rounds in a childs beach sandbucket!I went to visit one time [I was on leave from the Army] and noticed her old car sitting in the back yard with a bullet hole in the right rear fender.When I asked about it she said someone had shot her car![Hummm???] From the back door of the house to the injured part of the car was about 22 yards give or take.The amazing thing was the "entry wound" was perfectly round and about 1/2" in diameter.I searched for a long time trying to recover the bullet but no luck.I loaded these rounds specifically for her defense in the house,but I was amazed that the round that hit that steel fender appeared to be "hot, straight, and true" with no tumbling. Mom, past two years ago and cleaning out her house I came across 100+ rounds that I loaded. I thought I would use them in my mod. 60 or Colt Cobra but I wanted to try them in a stronger gun to see how stout they were first.I have no access to a chronograph,but firing the homemades in comparison to target 148 gr. wads they were "warmer" but not ,I think,to +P specs.So,I come to the house and try to load up a Mod. 60, a Cobra, and an Agent[revolver]. Guess what? They are about 1/16th of an inch too long! UGH !They will chamber in any .357 cylinder including my Mod. 60 in .357.I was really surprised that at 22 yards that bullet wasn't tumbling,maybe it was and just happened to be "nose on" when it hit.I don't really believe that but I will experiment further to figure out the "rest of the story". Nick

 

[Forrest r]

I cast my own hbwc's for the 38/357 & the 44spl/mag. Using a 20 to 1 or 15 to 1 ratio (lead to tin) I can cast hbwc's that don't tumble but will still expand.

Now if you want to see something truely get mid-evel on whatever it hits try some jacketed hbwc's. I load/shoot/use them in a pair of snub nosed revolvers (38spl & 44spl).

 

[Nevada Ed]

I bet it would be a heck of a site to see one of those "Backwards" HBwc bullets at 840fps or more, hit dead center on a Jackrabbit !!

 

[pistola]

HBWC

Would not want to be hit by one...

 

[KnotRight]

Back in the late 70's I did reload some 148gr reverse HBWC in a 38 case. Was at the dump and there was an old washing machine on side of the road. Nice flat side so I decided to see what the HBWC would do. Well at 15 or so yards, i had the nicest dent in the side on the machine that was about 3/8" wide and 3/4" long. did not go through the sheet metal but put a dent in it about 1/2"

At close range, I think that it would know you off your feet. I was living in an apartment at that time and thought it was a great defense load.

 

[silentflyer]

Loaded up a bunch of these in the 70's using Unique, shot up some wet phone books, knocked them backward several feet on impact. Slug looked like a quarter. If you hit a bad guy with one my guess is he is going down.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

HBWC fun

An old article in Guns & Ammo, July 1980, "More Wallop from Wadcutters" says they got base separation on the Speer HBWC at "velocities near 1000fps". This article mainly addressed loading 38 Spcls. with inverted HBWCs, to make a poor-man's hollowpoint, which expanded uniformly & to a large diameter. (Hornady testing proved that inverted HBWCs produced lower pressure, as much as 3K cup less, than standard seating, as had been questioned.) Inverted bullets were deemed best used at close range, 20-25 yds or less, as keyholing was exhibited at longer distance. They tested them from 535fps to 1039fps.

 

[TSQUARED]

In the 1960's before the advent of model HP ammo the popular load for snub nosed revolvers was the 148 gr. HBWC with a gas check seated on the bullet nose and then loaded backwards in to the case with the HP showing. They are not designed for bullseye level accuracy but for close encounters.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I am not wild about using hand loads for self defense any more. Too many possible legal issues. I now carry only factory ammo on me.

 

[TheTinMan]

Am I wrong in thinking that the purpose of the hollow base is to obdurate at the rear of the bullet and provide a better gas seal?

 

[Nevada Ed]

Yes, they do seal well due to the soft lead used..........

Speer at around 1,000 feet c/o separation, huh ?
That means that one at 850fps will have 237 ft/lbs of energy
that puts it right at all the 38 +P loadings, loaded........
either way !

 

[mikld]

Am I wrong in thinking that the purpose of the hollow base is to obdurate at the rear of the bullet and provide a better gas seal?

Yes, seals the bore for light target loads...

 

[hotrod150]

Both my Speer & Hornady book caution against hot loads with the HBWC. I believe what happens is that the expanding gasses push against the bottom of the forward part of the bullet, inside the hollow base, and it dutifully heads down the barrel--leaving the skirts behind.
This would not be an issue with an inverted (reversed) HBWC.
Two problems are addressed by swaging the BB shot into the hollow base of the bullet: 1) this moves the CG (center of gravity) forward so that the reversed bullet flies true (no tumbling), and 2) this keeps the cavity from plugging with clothing or whatever & hindering expansion. While not wadcutters, I believe there are a couple "new design" hollowpoints which use a similar ball (made of plastic) inside a hollowpoint to achieve effect #2.
I'd kinda like to try loading a few of these up, but unfortunately I don't have the HBWC's, BB's, or bullet-sizing tools. Guess I'll stick to my soft swaged lead SWC-HP's.