IRS Raids Gun Store, Takes 4473s

Grayfox

Grayfox

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This is an interesting story that's popped up on another forum I visit. 

A couple of days ago, armed IRS agents raided and temporarily closed a gun shop in Montana. After spending most of the day going thru records, they left with about 13 years worth of forms 4473. By all accounts, the agents were polite and behaved themselves. But questions remain. Why would the IRS raid a gun store? Why would they want/need the 4473s? 

Bear in mind that at this point there is little more than lots of speculation going on. Many are outraged and jumping to conclusions. Still waiting on actual facts as to why to come out. 

STORY HERE

2nd Story Here
 
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IRS Criminal Investigations served a search warrant (according to the owner) which means a federal judge found probable cause to believe 1) a tax crime has been committed at the gunshop, and 2) evidence of the crime existed at those specific premises.

We'll know more when an indictment is handed down or the owner is 'no billed' by a federal grand jury. All else is speculation.
 
biku324 said:
IRS Criminal Investigations served a search warrant (according to the owner) which means a federal judge found probable cause to believe 1) a tax crime has been committed at the gunshop, and 2) evidence of the crime existed at those specific premises.

We'll know more when an indictment is handed down or the owner is 'no billed' by a federal grand jury. All else is speculation.
Click to expand...

Thanks for making this point...it needs to be said, and often.

There is a lot of bashing of the federal government these days, with accusations that this-or-that agency is biased or rogue or acting out of base motives. But the fact is that there are checks and balances built into our justice system to keep abuses from happening, or to at least minimize their chances.

Search warrants have to be applied for, with evidence supplied, reviewed by agency supervisors, and then approved by a judge. Indictments are handed down by grand juries, composed of ordinary citizens...prosecutors or government officials don't simply "charge" someone.

Even in civil enforcement actions, when federal inspectors believe there has been a violation of the Code of Federal Regulations, and violators are facing fines rather than criminal convictions, there are protections built into the system, with several layers of approval required before a case is finalized.

I truly wish more Americans understood how well our system of justice works. It's not perfect, of course, but it's a model of respect for the rights of citizens.
 
These are just questions not challenges to what happened.

- How are 4473's related to money?

- Were sales receipts also taken? (cross check with 4473's)?

- How would the 4473's be used for tax fraud?

- I do not understand how the IRS has authority to move into firearm regulation when there is already a branch dedicated to that.
 
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That is interesting, indeed!

Tom Van Hoose has owned Highwood Creed Outfitters in Great Falls, Montana for 13 years. As he pulled into work Wednesday morning, twenty heavily armed Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation Division agents swarmed his store. He tells TTAG that the IRS agents, in full battle rattle, had been mustered from as far away as Denver and Idaho to serve a warrant for his financial records.

He told us the IRS claims that he has under-reported and failed to report millions of dollars of income. Mr. Van Hoose denied that categorically and told us that anyone who knows anything about the gun business knows there's not a lot of extra revenue in running a retail gun store and range.

He also said that the IRS CID troops took ten hours to copy the information on his computers and download his point of sale software information.

So...in the '80s, we had a killing of a tourist by a local with what ballistic examiners said was a 220 Swift. We and the DA's investigator took an ATF agent to check local ammo sales outlets to see if anyone had sold 220 Swift ammo, and to whom. We found nothing useful in that investigation BUT the ATF agent found in a tiny gun store that the owner had been selling 9 AR-15s and/or semi-auto versions of MAC-10s per transaction to US citizen immigrants from the West Bank for several times the real retail price. Israeli Armed Forces eventually came across one of the AR-15s in a killing on the West Bank. Precisely how the weaponry made it to the West Bank from Gallup, NM, was never fully established; it involved more legitimate cargo shipping routes from Mexico.

Let's see what develops here.
 
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So what happens if the ATF calls for a firearms trace if he is no longer in possession of the 4473s?. In the shop where I worked I did the traces and while I could answer some questions without them, all the information they wanted would not be on just the sales records.
 
Beemerguy53 said:
Thanks for making this point...it needs to be said, and often.

There is a lot of bashing of the federal government these days, with accusations that this-or-that agency is biased or rogue or acting out of base motives. But the fact is that there are checks and balances built into our justice system to keep abuses from happening, or to at least minimize their chances.

Search warrants have to be applied for, with evidence supplied, reviewed by agency supervisors, and then approved by a judge. Indictments are handed down by grand juries, composed of ordinary citizens...prosecutors or government officials don't simply "charge" someone.

Even in civil enforcement actions, when federal inspectors believe there has been a violation of the Code of Federal Regulations, and violators are facing fines rather than criminal convictions, there are protections built into the system, with several layers of approval required before a case is finalized.

I truly wish more Americans understood how well our system of justice works. It's not perfect, of course, but it's a model of respect for the rights of citizens.
Click to expand...

Does this apply to the FBI and the FISA courts?
 
My immediate reaction re the IRS confiscating the 4473s is that it wanted to confirm if the amount of guns/revenue reported as sold, as income, jived with the 4473 reports. That seems to be the case as the article describes.

There is a lot of under reporting of income going on. The article says the under reporting in this case is suspected to be in the millions, which sounds to me like the guy was pushing his luck.

Re what happens if the ATF audits him and his 4473s are gone, while in my opinion that is the least of his problems, I'm sure the IRS will return the forms after tallying them up to ballpark the FFL's sales record. (The guy is unlikely to need them, though, as it looks like he's out of business.)
 
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There's also a third story! That being that the owner of Highwood Creek Outfitters running afoul with the ATF in Wisconsin in 2015, which cost him nearly ~$5.7-Mln. USD to resolve for doing the same thing, not keeping proper records…


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New info: Story Here

Lots of people were getting all bent outta shape because a gun shop was involved. Tons of speculation about government over reach, Biden, dems and whatever.

Turns out its all about tax fraud. "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."

Current guess is that the 4473s are to prove more sales than actually reported. 

So untwist those panties folks. Ain't no over reach or conspiracies here. :rolleyes:
 
Sometime around 2017, a gun shop near Winchester, Virginia was raided for being caught selling firearm reportedly destroyed in a in shop fire and collecting the insurance money of their worth before the fire. Fraud is fraud, and really does the general public (i.e. the customer) a disservice in not knowing as to whether the seller is serving your needed interests or their own…


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Secundius said:
There's also a third story! That being that the owner of Highwood Creek Outfitters running afoul with the ATF in Wisconsin in 2015, which cost him nearly ~$5.7-Mln. USD to resolve for doing the same thing, not keeping proper records…
Click to expand...

The owner of a gun shop not far away from me got snippy with ATF some years ago, and learned a valuable lesson. They had audited him, and found a number of problems with his 4473s...unsigned forms, etc. His attitude was basically "what's the big deal?", which got his FFL suspended.

If you flout the law or the Code of Federal Regulations, expect to pay a price for that...
 
Beemerguy53 said:
The owner of a gun shop not far away from me got snippy with ATF some years ago, and learned a valuable lesson. They had audited him, and found a number of problems with his 4473s...unsigned forms, etc. His attitude was basically "what's the big deal?", which got his FFL suspended.

If you flout the law or the Code of Federal Regulations, expect to pay a price for that...
Click to expand...


It's called Firearms Compliance Inspections, which the AFT are allowed to conduct at anytime of the day and without notification to the store or the owner of the store! Basically the same as the USCG are allowed to do with all US Registered Boat Owners, the Fire Department with all businesses, the Health Inspectors with all restaurants, etc…


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Grayfox said:
New info: Story Here

Lots of people were getting all bent outta shape because a gun shop was involved. Tons of speculation about government over reach, Biden, dems and whatever.

Turns out its all about tax fraud. "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."

Current guess is that the 4473s are to prove more sales than actually reported. 

So untwist those panties folks. Ain't no over reach or conspiracies here. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.
 
moralem said:
How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.
Click to expand...


Serial Number! Whoever the Insurance Carrier is that the shop owner uses, will take that serial number off of their computer files and value of of what it was originally insured for…


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Here is a little tidbit about 4473's.

I owned a gun store and indoor shooting range in the 1970's and decided to shut it down due to several reasons.

When I finally closed the doors I contacted the local ATF Office and asked them when would they like me to bring the 4473's to the ATF Office.

They told me they did not want them. I had a cardboard file box full of 4473's.

I tore them up and put them in the garbage.

Never heard from the ATF after that.

Remember, this was a time period when 4473's were not on a computer, they were only on yellow paper.

I am guessing that if a search for a sale of a gun was needed the local ATF agents were flat too lazy to consider looking for a particular sale during the 1970s and that is why they did not want them.
 
And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?
 
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Contrary to popular belief, federal judges don't just sign warrants Willy Nilly. My son is a federal agent and says it's tough to get an ADA to sign off on getting a warrant unless all the Is are dotted and Ts crossed. the last thing they want is a case to blow up in their face because of a bad warrant.
 
DWalt said:
And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?
Click to expand...

There are about 2,100 IRS criminal investigation agents today. Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance | Internal Revenue Service That is of 84,553 IRS employees as of September 30, 2022. IRS Budget and Workforce | Internal Revenue Service - see Table 32.

The 87,000 number appears to have come from a Treasury Department estimate of the level of hiring needed to maintain IRS efficiency and keep up with retirements and other staff declines. However, the actual number of new IRS agents that will be hired remains to be seen. Are 87,000 New IRS Agents Coming for Your Tax Dollars? | Kiplinger
 
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Had the store been mine, the records would have gone through in a day's time. Everything was printed by myself and easy to read.
They could have looked through the 4473s almost as quickly, depending on what they were looking for. I was small time.

But, had they asked to leave with the 4473s, a red light would have gone off. Welcome to use them here. Need a chair and desk? No? Let me first call ATF. ATF had done a few casual checks with no prior notice. Wouldn't want to upset them!

Have a bad feeling about handing over documents that should stay there.
Even copies would have caused me to call ATF. Those are for entity and ATF records, kept in some form of order, and kept on site. Having nothing to hide, all would have been fine with proper ATF inclusion and warrants from ATF. I would have been kind and courteous, but would have asked to explain the rules an FFL has to abide by. Two days here or more red tape?

They all could have left happy, with a signed document to protect myself from crossing lines. It would take me less time to place them back in order, than copy them. Keeping them onsite would assure nothing went lost or misplaced. Where there's a will, there's a way.

When one or two rotten apples start smelling the place up, someone has to do something. I'd have done it with help from ATF, myself. You get in the millions, you're talking above my head, though. Almost time for a nap.
 
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