IRS Raids Gun Store, Takes 4473s

[moralem]

New info: Story Here

Lots of people were getting all bent outta shape because a gun shop was involved. Tons of speculation about government over reach, Biden, dems and whatever.

Turns out its all about tax fraud. "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."

Current guess is that the 4473s are to prove more sales than actually reported. 

So untwist those panties folks. Ain't no over reach or conspiracies here. 

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

 

[Secundius]

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

Serial Number! Whoever the Insurance Carrier is that the shop owner uses, will take that serial number off of their computer files and value of of what it was originally insured for…


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[jrm53]

I had a FFL from about 82 thru 95 and I don't think the 4473 form at that time had a place for the price. Jeff

 

[pharmer]

Nothing constructive to say here except: "It's show time!" Joe

 

[martyd]

Here is a little tidbit about 4473's.

I owned a gun store and indoor shooting range in the 1970's and decided to shut it down due to several reasons.

When I finally closed the doors I contacted the local ATF Office and asked them when would they like me to bring the 4473's to the ATF Office.

They told me they did not want them. I had a cardboard file box full of 4473's.

I tore them up and put them in the garbage.

Never heard from the ATF after that.

Remember, this was a time period when 4473's were not on a computer, they were only on yellow paper.

I am guessing that if a search for a sale of a gun was needed the local ATF agents were flat too lazy to consider looking for a particular sale during the 1970s and that is why they did not want them.

 

[DWalt]

And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?

 

[SMSgt]

Contrary to popular belief, federal judges don't just sign warrants Willy Nilly. My son is a federal agent and says it's tough to get an ADA to sign off on getting a warrant unless all the Is are dotted and Ts crossed. the last thing they want is a case to blow up in their face because of a bad warrant.

 

[biku324]

And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?

There are about 2,100 IRS criminal investigation agents today. Criminal Investigation (CI) At-a-Glance | Internal Revenue Service That is of 84,553 IRS employees as of September 30, 2022. IRS Budget and Workforce | Internal Revenue Service - see Table 32.

The 87,000 number appears to have come from a Treasury Department estimate of the level of hiring needed to maintain IRS efficiency and keep up with retirements and other staff declines. However, the actual number of new IRS agents that will be hired remains to be seen. Are 87,000 New IRS Agents Coming for Your Tax Dollars? | Kiplinger

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

Had the store been mine, the records would have gone through in a day's time. Everything was printed by myself and easy to read.
They could have looked through the 4473s almost as quickly, depending on what they were looking for. I was small time.

But, had they asked to leave with the 4473s, a red light would have gone off. Welcome to use them here. Need a chair and desk? No? Let me first call ATF. ATF had done a few casual checks with no prior notice. Wouldn't want to upset them!

Have a bad feeling about handing over documents that should stay there.
Even copies would have caused me to call ATF. Those are for entity and ATF records, kept in some form of order, and kept on site. Having nothing to hide, all would have been fine with proper ATF inclusion and warrants from ATF. I would have been kind and courteous, but would have asked to explain the rules an FFL has to abide by. Two days here or more red tape?

They all could have left happy, with a signed document to protect myself from crossing lines. It would take me less time to place them back in order, than copy them. Keeping them onsite would assure nothing went lost or misplaced. Where there's a will, there's a way.

When one or two rotten apples start smelling the place up, someone has to do something. I'd have done it with help from ATF, myself. You get in the millions, you're talking above my head, though. Almost time for a nap.

 

[Nedroe]

According to this ATF was there as well.

'Heavily Armed' Agents from IRS, ATF Swoop in on Local Gun Shop

This is just beginning, & it is gonna get ugly.

Ned

 

[Beemerguy53]

And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?

This claim about 87,000 "new IRS agents" has been debunked so many times, by so many different entities, that it's hard to believe anyone is still spreading it.

Here's just one explanation...there are many other sources saying the same thing if anyone cares to Google the story.

IRS isn't hiring 87,000 agents tasked with middle-class audits | verifythis.com

 

[Rpg]

I don't know this FFL, but his situation sounds similar to what happened to an LGS FFL in one of our suburbs.

The LGS was called Gunsmoke. Guy had a beautiful wife and daughter and had a TV show that included some illegal classIII guns.

The owner is in prison right now for tax fraud and violating the gun control laws. He had lost his FFL but continued selling through a front. Owes the feds a bunch.

 

[venomballistics]

my assumption....
pistol brace is "now" an "NFA Item"... those require a tax stamp... combination gets you an alphabet soup visit... makes sense to me.

That's the closest thing to the target so far.
But the brace is just another one of the parts traveling in tight formation, not transferred by the 4473 as the receiver would be.

 

[twodog max]

To easy to tread into politics here but showing up in battle gear sure smacks of police state IMO.

 

[ladder13]

I know this is not a popular stance here, but I'd wait for all the facts and the resolution.

 

[Alton]

The idea of hiring 87,000 new IRS agents came from our President as reported from Politico on 5/20/21. The idea was to have them collect 240 billion from wage earners making less than 400K a year at a cost of 80 billion. This all takes place during a 10 year time line.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Search warrants are not permission slips, they are court orders issued only upon sworn testimony demonstrating probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that a search of certain premises will result in seizure of relevant evidence of said crime.

When a search warrant is served a true copy of the warrant must be given to the owner or occupant if present, or posted prominently on the property. Any items seized as a result of the warrant must be inventoried and a receipt provided. In cases requiring forced entry the officers are responsible for taking reasonable steps to secure the premises before leaving.

The judge issuing the search warrant may impose restrictions on service such as specifying "during normal business hours", "during hours of daylight", requirements to announce official presence and purpose, or just about anything deemed appropriate. Unless such limitations are ordered the warrant may be served at any time and using whatever tactics or methods deemed reasonably necessary by the officers. (The point here is that all warrants are "no knock warrants" unless the judge has issued such orders).

The warrant must specify the exact premises to be entered and the specific items to be seized; a warrant is not general permission to intrude at will. If the items sought are of significant size there is no general permission to search within areas not sufficiently large to contain the items. Items not specifically mentioned are found during the course of the search that are unlawful (contraband, stolen property, etc) those items may be seized and included in the inventory, and subsequently used as evidence in criminal proceedings.

 

[SMSgt]

My son deals with passport/visa/ID fraud--mostly always illegal aliens--and almost always involves the assistance of local LE. Contrary to what some think, he never has an issue getting their assistance. In fact, LE comes to him for assistance in locating people as he has access to functions they do not. One of his primary investigative "tools" is social media. His "evidence" will typically be paperwork-IDs, applications, etc., but his search will often turn up drugs, large sums of cash, etc. Those items are turned over to the local LE for "disposition" as required.

 

[Secundius]

The idea of hiring 87,000 new IRS agents came from our President as reported from Politico on 5/20/21. The idea was to have them collect 240 billion from wage earners making less than 400K a year at a cost of 80 billion. This all takes place during a 10 year time line.

No it wasn't! Senator Ted Cruz made the 87,000 IRS Agents statement on FOX News during an interview, two days after he learned about during budget negotiations within the US Senate…


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[Jon651]

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

Well, if I were going to serve a subpoena on a shop that dealt in firearms over a possible crime worth millions it seems that being prepared for the worst is called for.

That would be like the fire department receiving a fire alarm from a warehouse that is known to store and distribute fireworks, toxic chemicals or such. Even if nothing ended up being wrong it would be wiser to respond with a full alarm rather than simply send the rookie in a pick-up truck to knock on the door...