IRS Raids Gun Store, Takes 4473s

[Beemerguy53]

And what happens when IRS gets their 87K (or whatever the current number is) new agents? IRS is now in the process of advertising for new agents. I have seen the ads. I doubt all of them will be going after Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Tim Cook, etc. So who does that leave? Let's see - how about we start auditing all the FFLs?

This claim about 87,000 "new IRS agents" has been debunked so many times, by so many different entities, that it's hard to believe anyone is still spreading it.

Here's just one explanation...there are many other sources saying the same thing if anyone cares to Google the story.

IRS isn't hiring 87,000 agents tasked with middle-class audits | verifythis.com

 

[Rpg]

I don't know this FFL, but his situation sounds similar to what happened to an LGS FFL in one of our suburbs.

The LGS was called Gunsmoke. Guy had a beautiful wife and daughter and had a TV show that included some illegal classIII guns.

The owner is in prison right now for tax fraud and violating the gun control laws. He had lost his FFL but continued selling through a front. Owes the feds a bunch.

 

[venomballistics]

my assumption....
pistol brace is "now" an "NFA Item"... those require a tax stamp... combination gets you an alphabet soup visit... makes sense to me.

That's the closest thing to the target so far.
But the brace is just another one of the parts traveling in tight formation, not transferred by the 4473 as the receiver would be.

 

[twodog max]

To easy to tread into politics here but showing up in battle gear sure smacks of police state IMO.

 

[ladder13]

I know this is not a popular stance here, but I'd wait for all the facts and the resolution.

 

[Alton]

The idea of hiring 87,000 new IRS agents came from our President as reported from Politico on 5/20/21. The idea was to have them collect 240 billion from wage earners making less than 400K a year at a cost of 80 billion. This all takes place during a 10 year time line.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Search warrants are not permission slips, they are court orders issued only upon sworn testimony demonstrating probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that a search of certain premises will result in seizure of relevant evidence of said crime.

When a search warrant is served a true copy of the warrant must be given to the owner or occupant if present, or posted prominently on the property. Any items seized as a result of the warrant must be inventoried and a receipt provided. In cases requiring forced entry the officers are responsible for taking reasonable steps to secure the premises before leaving.

The judge issuing the search warrant may impose restrictions on service such as specifying "during normal business hours", "during hours of daylight", requirements to announce official presence and purpose, or just about anything deemed appropriate. Unless such limitations are ordered the warrant may be served at any time and using whatever tactics or methods deemed reasonably necessary by the officers. (The point here is that all warrants are "no knock warrants" unless the judge has issued such orders).

The warrant must specify the exact premises to be entered and the specific items to be seized; a warrant is not general permission to intrude at will. If the items sought are of significant size there is no general permission to search within areas not sufficiently large to contain the items. Items not specifically mentioned are found during the course of the search that are unlawful (contraband, stolen property, etc) those items may be seized and included in the inventory, and subsequently used as evidence in criminal proceedings.

 

[SMSgt]

My son deals with passport/visa/ID fraud--mostly always illegal aliens--and almost always involves the assistance of local LE. Contrary to what some think, he never has an issue getting their assistance. In fact, LE comes to him for assistance in locating people as he has access to functions they do not. One of his primary investigative "tools" is social media. His "evidence" will typically be paperwork-IDs, applications, etc., but his search will often turn up drugs, large sums of cash, etc. Those items are turned over to the local LE for "disposition" as required.

 

[Secundius]

The idea of hiring 87,000 new IRS agents came from our President as reported from Politico on 5/20/21. The idea was to have them collect 240 billion from wage earners making less than 400K a year at a cost of 80 billion. This all takes place during a 10 year time line.

No it wasn't! Senator Ted Cruz made the 87,000 IRS Agents statement on FOX News during an interview, two days after he learned about during budget negotiations within the US Senate…


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[Jon651]

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

Well, if I were going to serve a subpoena on a shop that dealt in firearms over a possible crime worth millions it seems that being prepared for the worst is called for.

That would be like the fire department receiving a fire alarm from a warehouse that is known to store and distribute fireworks, toxic chemicals or such. Even if nothing ended up being wrong it would be wiser to respond with a full alarm rather than simply send the rookie in a pick-up truck to knock on the door...

 

[Secundius]

The printed media claims 20 Heavily Armed Agents raided the shop, and yet for some reason there are not actual photographs of 20 heavily armed agents storming the place! Which seems a bit odd, if you trying to make a point! Not even any CCTV footage of the raid…


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[Kinman]

My personal experience with the FBI and a gun I sold to a friend. Close to forty years ago I sold a Colt Trooper to a friend of mine, at that time there was no issue with private sales in this state. Fast forward a dozen or so years and I get a phone call from the FBI. It all seemed very straight forward, I was talking to an agent. He asked if I minded if he questioned me briefly. I told him I had nothing to hide, go ahead. He asked me if I was the owner of Colt Trooper serial #...., I replied that I bought a Colt Trooper from a dealer but sold it to a friend years ago. He wanted to know how many years ago and if I was still in contact with the friend. I replied that my friend died a number of years ago and that all I knew about him beyond that was that he had one daughter who had married an airman from Fairchild, AFB. He told me that was very interesting because they were trying to figure out how my revolver purchased in Spokane, ended up in Florida. The airman connection was a very good probability. I gave them her maiden name, which was all I had, he thanked me and was hanging up when I said, may I ask you a question? What does my revolver have to do with Florida, he mentioned that it was used in a serious drug deal, they ran the numbers back to the dealer....

 

[pawngal]

The printed media claims 20 Heavily Armed Agents raided the shop, and yet for some reason there are not actual photographs of 20 heavily armed agents storming the place! Which seems a bit odd, if you trying to make a point! Not even any CCTV footage of the raid…


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And what point would any of that serve? None. Just more media fodder.

 

[Secundius]

Twenty ATF Agents simply walking through the front doors to make a Compliance Inspection doesn't mean a raid by heavy armed agents…


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[pawngal]

Twenty ATF Agents simply walking through the front doors to make a Compliance Inspection doesn't mean a raid by heavy armed agents…


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In my limited contact with ATF agents they are always armed. Considering the general hatred for the ATF & IRS I see no problem with them being armed in their line of work.

 

[Truckman]

In my limited contact with ATF agents they are always armed. Considering the general hatred for the ATF & IRS I see no problem with them being armed in their line of work.

FFL's will generally come in contact with only two types of representatives from their respective ATF divisions: Compliance and Enforcement...I once asked a Compliance Inspector of my acquaintance whether he carried a gun on duty...He pulled a ballpoint pen from his shirt pocket and said he can hurt a bad gun dealer a lot more with that than he could with any gun...He said Enforcement Agents carry guns, not Compliance Inspectors......Ben

 

[Bald1]

Everyone knows when you want to catch a bad guy you send in the IRS……. Ask Al Capone.

 

[Secundius]

Everyone knows when you want to catch a bad guy you send in the IRS……. Ask Al Capone.

The ATF didn't exist before 1972…


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[LVSteve]

The ATF didn't exist before 1972…


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Details, schmeetails.

You could see a real fun jurisdiction dispute breaking out in this story with the gun store and the owner's livelihood getting lost in the ruckus. That wouldn't be right.

 

[BB57]

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that's much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It's beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

 

[Secundius]

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that's much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It's beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

But considering this shop owner fell afoul with the law back in 2015 for virtually doing the same think shrinks that fishing expedition to someone dipping a net into a goldfish bowl…


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[biku324]

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that's much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It's beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

Unless one has seen the warrant or affidavit speculation about agents exceeding its scope is guesstimation.

 

[venomballistics]

I know this is not a popular stance here, but I'd wait for all the facts and the resolution.

I'd like to, but as these things always seem to go, we never actually get there. The trail goes cold long before

 

[pawngal]

But considering this shop owner fell afoul with the law back in 2015 for virtually doing the same think shrinks that fishing expedition to someone dipping a net into a goldfish bowl…


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Please provide the information for the 2015 incident you keep referring to. At least give me a crumb trail to follow.

 

[LVSteve]

I'd like to, but as these things always seem to go, we never actually get there. The trail goes cold long before

...especially if it doesn't fit certain commentaries.

 

[Secundius]

Please provide the information for the 2015 incident you keep referring to. At least give me a crumb trail to follow.

Montana gun dealers respond to Wisconsin verdict


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[delcrossv]

Thanks for making this point...it needs to be said, and often.

There is a lot of bashing of the federal government these days, with accusations that this-or-that agency is biased or rogue or acting out of base motives. But the fact is that there are checks and balances built into our justice system to keep abuses from happening, or to at least minimize their chances.

Search warrants have to be applied for, with evidence supplied, reviewed by agency supervisors, and then approved by a judge. Indictments are handed down by grand juries, composed of ordinary citizens...prosecutors or government officials don't simply "charge" someone.

Even in civil enforcement actions, when federal inspectors believe there has been a violation of the Code of Federal Regulations, and violators are facing fines rather than criminal convictions, there are protections built into the system, with several layers of approval required before a case is finalized.

I truly wish more Americans understood how well our system of justice works. It's not perfect, of course, but it's a model of respect for the rights of citizens.

LOL. If only....sure would be nice if it actually worked that way.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU[/ame]

 

[biku324]

It does. Whether folks choose to beieve it or not.

 

[Chuck24]

FFL's will generally come in contact with only two types of representatives from their respective ATF divisions: Compliance and Enforcement...I once asked a Compliance Inspector of my acquaintance whether he carried a gun on duty...He pulled a ballpoint pen from his shirt pocket and said he can hurt a bad gun dealer a lot more with that than he could with any gun...He said Enforcement Agents carry guns, not Compliance Inspectors......Ben

The compliance officers that come to the pawnshop where I worked were definitely armed.

 

[delcrossv]

It does. Whether folks choose to beieve it or not.

Uh huh. Sure it does. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Note the news? How much time do you think you'd get for intentionally falsifying a 4473?

I'll just stop there.