IRS Raids Gun Store, Takes 4473s

[Secundius]

The printed media claims 20 Heavily Armed Agents raided the shop, and yet for some reason there are not actual photographs of 20 heavily armed agents storming the place! Which seems a bit odd, if you trying to make a point! Not even any CCTV footage of the raid…


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[Kinman]

My personal experience with the FBI and a gun I sold to a friend. Close to forty years ago I sold a Colt Trooper to a friend of mine, at that time there was no issue with private sales in this state. Fast forward a dozen or so years and I get a phone call from the FBI. It all seemed very straight forward, I was talking to an agent. He asked if I minded if he questioned me briefly. I told him I had nothing to hide, go ahead. He asked me if I was the owner of Colt Trooper serial #...., I replied that I bought a Colt Trooper from a dealer but sold it to a friend years ago. He wanted to know how many years ago and if I was still in contact with the friend. I replied that my friend died a number of years ago and that all I knew about him beyond that was that he had one daughter who had married an airman from Fairchild, AFB. He told me that was very interesting because they were trying to figure out how my revolver purchased in Spokane, ended up in Florida. The airman connection was a very good probability. I gave them her maiden name, which was all I had, he thanked me and was hanging up when I said, may I ask you a question? What does my revolver have to do with Florida, he mentioned that it was used in a serious drug deal, they ran the numbers back to the dealer....

 

[pawngal]

The printed media claims 20 Heavily Armed Agents raided the shop, and yet for some reason there are not actual photographs of 20 heavily armed agents storming the place! Which seems a bit odd, if you trying to make a point! Not even any CCTV footage of the raid…


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And what point would any of that serve? None. Just more media fodder.

 

[Secundius]

Twenty ATF Agents simply walking through the front doors to make a Compliance Inspection doesn’t mean a raid by heavy armed agents…


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[pawngal]

Twenty ATF Agents simply walking through the front doors to make a Compliance Inspection doesn’t mean a raid by heavy armed agents…


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In my limited contact with ATF agents they are always armed. Considering the general hatred for the ATF & IRS I see no problem with them being armed in their line of work.

 

[Truckman]

In my limited contact with ATF agents they are always armed. Considering the general hatred for the ATF & IRS I see no problem with them being armed in their line of work.

FFL's will generally come in contact with only two types of representatives from their respective ATF divisions: Compliance and Enforcement...I once asked a Compliance Inspector of my acquaintance whether he carried a gun on duty...He pulled a ballpoint pen from his shirt pocket and said he can hurt a bad gun dealer a lot more with that than he could with any gun...He said Enforcement Agents carry guns, not Compliance Inspectors......Ben

 

[Bald1]

Everyone knows when you want to catch a bad guy you send in the IRS……. Ask Al Capone.

 

[Secundius]

Everyone knows when you want to catch a bad guy you send in the IRS……. Ask Al Capone.

The ATF didn’t exist before 1972…


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[LVSteve]

The ATF didn’t exist before 1972…


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Details, schmeetails.

You could see a real fun jurisdiction dispute breaking out in this story with the gun store and the owner's livelihood getting lost in the ruckus. That wouldn't be right.

 

[BB57]

How does a 4473 reveal price of transaction…..one would have to cross walk the transaction to a sale and not just a transfer……the dude may be guilty but why make such an armed show of force.

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that’s much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It’s beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

 

[Secundius]

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that’s much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It’s beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

But considering this shop owner fell afoul with the law back in 2015 for virtually doing the same think shrinks that fishing expedition to someone dipping a net into a goldfish bowl…


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[biku324]

Agreed that would be tens of thousands of man hours estimating prices, cross matching is wholesale and other purchase records with his sales records, and then cross matching individual firearm serial numbers to separate the transfers from the actual firearms sold.

And why 13 years of records when the IRS statute of limitations for gross under reporting is just 6 years.

Even assuming there is a warrant, that’s much like looking in the kitchen cabinets when the warrant is for a stolen mini van. It’s beyond the scope of the crime and anything found would not be admissible.

It really looks a lot like a fishing trip.

Unless one has seen the warrant or affidavit speculation about agents exceeding its scope is guesstimation.

 

[venomballistics]

I know this is not a popular stance here, but I’d wait for all the facts and the resolution.

I'd like to, but as these things always seem to go, we never actually get there. The trail goes cold long before

 

[pawngal]

But considering this shop owner fell afoul with the law back in 2015 for virtually doing the same think shrinks that fishing expedition to someone dipping a net into a goldfish bowl…


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Please provide the information for the 2015 incident you keep referring to. At least give me a crumb trail to follow.

 

[LVSteve]

I'd like to, but as these things always seem to go, we never actually get there. The trail goes cold long before

...especially if it doesn't fit certain commentaries.

 

[Secundius]

Please provide the information for the 2015 incident you keep referring to. At least give me a crumb trail to follow.

Montana gun dealers respond to Wisconsin verdict


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[delcrossv]

Thanks for making this point...it needs to be said, and often.

There is a lot of bashing of the federal government these days, with accusations that this-or-that agency is biased or rogue or acting out of base motives. But the fact is that there are checks and balances built into our justice system to keep abuses from happening, or to at least minimize their chances.

Search warrants have to be applied for, with evidence supplied, reviewed by agency supervisors, and then approved by a judge. Indictments are handed down by grand juries, composed of ordinary citizens...prosecutors or government officials don't simply "charge" someone.

Even in civil enforcement actions, when federal inspectors believe there has been a violation of the Code of Federal Regulations, and violators are facing fines rather than criminal convictions, there are protections built into the system, with several layers of approval required before a case is finalized.

I truly wish more Americans understood how well our system of justice works. It's not perfect, of course, but it's a model of respect for the rights of citizens.

LOL. If only....sure would be nice if it actually worked that way.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSZxmZmBfnU[/ame]

 

[biku324]

It does. Whether folks choose to beieve it or not.

 

[Chuck24]

FFL's will generally come in contact with only two types of representatives from their respective ATF divisions: Compliance and Enforcement...I once asked a Compliance Inspector of my acquaintance whether he carried a gun on duty...He pulled a ballpoint pen from his shirt pocket and said he can hurt a bad gun dealer a lot more with that than he could with any gun...He said Enforcement Agents carry guns, not Compliance Inspectors......Ben

The compliance officers that come to the pawnshop where I worked were definitely armed.

 

[delcrossv]

It does. Whether folks choose to beieve it or not.

Uh huh. Sure it does. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Note the news? How much time do you think you'd get for intentionally falsifying a 4473?

I'll just stop there.