IRS Raids Gun Store, Takes 4473s

[yaktamer]

@Secundius;

How long have you held your seat at the High Table with the Council of Contrarians?

And was the table constructed out of rare earth minerals created by the government with a 3D printer?

 

[Secundius]

And was the table constructed out of rare earth minerals created by the government with a 3D printer?

You should try asking Ames Laboratories that question…

( U.S. DoE applies LENS additive manufacturing to discover better magnets - 3D Printing Industry )


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[BB57]

You're outside your expertise. If I am inside an office, opening file cabinets searching for records and see cocaine, I can seize it under the 'plain view doctrine.' The way easiest for trial, though, would be to simply keep a LE presence there so the cocaine doesn't disappear and get another warrant for it. What matters is that you are lawfully present properly serving a warrant and saw evidence of a crime while there.

Civil and criminal law are not the same.

My expertise was monitoring and auditing states that misappropriated millions in federal funds.

You can't seize the whole filing cabinet with 13 years of documents when the statute of limitations is less. We worked with a 5 year statute of limitations, but also a two year funding and reporting cycle so we could go back 7 years.

Sure, we might see documents that show a pattern of similar criminal behavior prior to that but we could not use it.

I agree with you that civil and criminal law isn't the same. Civil law has more latitude than criminal, law and the IRS is clearly pursuing a criminal investigation.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

4473's are a legitimate record for an IRS audit for estimating actual revenue. Al Capone was convicted on an estimate of unreported revenue.

The IRS has been sadly understaffed and underfunded for at least a decade. No, no matter what politicians say, they will not go after Billionaires and large corporations because those targets are too well defended. It is the W-2 taxpayers with some investments, foreign income or large deductions where they make their money. The IRS has years of backlog to work off and will lose most of their experience - if not head count - to retirements in the next few years. At one point the average age of an IRs employee was in the fifties (no longer true), these new agents will scarcely cover recent retirements - if they can hire them. Their most ready pool of recruits are state tax auditors which they are hiring wholesale away from your state tax agencies depleting their resources. Try getting a phone call answered by a person these days in the Oklahoma or Pennsylvania Departments of Revenue. There is no statute of limitations on the IRS if a taxpayer - however defined - return is not filed.

Nothing in this disturbs me, and i fight these people for a living.

 

[pharmer]

.....Any item that is evidence of the crime that occasioned the warrant or evidence of other crimes encountered while serving the search warrant can be seized. No matter the 'age.' The person whose property has been searched gets a copy of the warrant and receipt/return for items seized; a trial court judge decides if items were seized that are not evidence, and those will be returned after a hearing. This is pretty basic constitutional criminal procedure.....

Huh, I must be in the wrong universe. All I see in the paper these days is "the wrong people" get chased down with torches and pitchforks and the "correct" people get a parade. Even if they behave in the exact same manner. This is pretty basic current procedure. Joe

 

[Alk8944]

If any of you had read the linked articles you will see that the IRS Agents did not take the 4473s, they copied them. If anyone had simply read the items this entire thread would not exist since every post I read was complaining that the dealer now does not have the 4473s for future audits, or other required reasons!

You all know the old saw, "Don't let facts get in the way of a good story" don't you? But then we wouldn't have had a reason to complain about a government agency!

 

[pawngal]

If any of you had read the linked articles you will see that the IRS Agents did not take the 4473s, they copied them. If anyone had simply read the items this entire thread would not exist since every post I read was complaining that the dealer now does not have the 4473s for future audits, or other required reasons!

You all know the old saw, "Don't let facts get in the way of a good story" don't you? But then we wouldn't have had a reason to complain about a government agency!

Wrong!! The agents did take the 4473 forms.
Agents copied the acquisition & dispersal books. And downloaded the financial info from the shop's computers
Prove me wrong

 

[Rob613]

Not sure if this makes the 4473s considered a financial document, but they staple a copy of the register receipt to the 4473.

My info is on a few of those 4473s that were taken.

 

[biku324]

Huh, I must be in the wrong universe. All I see in the paper these days is "the wrong people" get chased down with torches and pitchforks and the "correct" people get a parade. Even if they behave in the exact same manner. This is pretty basic current procedure. Joe

When people decide to break laws, they should anticipate consequences. The clergy will be happy to hear their sad stories; I could care less.

 

[pawngal]

Not sure if this makes the 4473s considered a financial document, but they staple a copy of the register receipt to the 4473.

My info is on a few of those 4473s that were taken.

Now that puts a whole new light on the subject of the 4473s.

 

[Rob613]

Was at the shop today, the local ATF agent was present at the raid and in plain clothes. For 2 hours he told the shop not to let the IRS have the 4473s. ATF agent took a phone call and then advised the shop to give them up. The shop just passed a Montana state audit, owing $0.

Tom's planning a fight but needs help. He's secured a lawyer out of Denver who is willing to go up against the feds. There will also be a class action lawsuit coming for those of us whose rights have been violated.

Just a moment...

A rally will be held July 1 at 10am in the store parking lot. VanHoose says people need to start standing up for their rights. They are calling it a Patriot Rally with a theme. That theme is SUBO. It stands for, Stand up or Bend Over.

 

[biku324]

Not sure how a warrant violates anyone's rights. Seems like the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments working as designed.

 

[Secundius]

I don't having ~25 employees qualified Highwood Creek Outfitters as a "Mom and Pop Shop"…


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[biku324]

So; the one person I know who lost $100k to the IRS was a local water well-driller. He didn't pay his Self-Emoyment taxes. Ever. They finally just filed a lien against his property and never went so far as a search warrant.

Listening to only one side is unprofitable.

 

[Benton Quest]

So; the one person I know who lost $100k to the IRS was a local water well-driller. He didn't pay his Self-Emoyment taxes. Ever. They finally just filed a lien against his property and never went so far as a search warrant.

Listening to only one side is unprofitable.

In that case, he did not "lose" $100,000; they simply collected what he should have always been paying, plus penalties and interest...which he would not have had to pay if he had paid timely.

That is a civil matter, with a different burden of proof. I promise you, before a lien was placed, he ignored or avoided numerous contacts attempting to collect the tax. In a lien situation, no one wins...and news flash...they expire in 10 years.

Once again, civil. Not criminal.

The search warrant is a tool of Criminal Investigation, and they are not handed out lightly. That is a criminal matter.

People have the right to peacefully speak out in any way they see fit. However, they are only hearing half the story.

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[biku324]

Precisely. One doesn't just wake up one day while doing the right thing only to be inexplicably targeted by an IRS criminal investigation.

 

[BSA1]

Tom's planning a fight but needs help. He's secured a lawyer out of Denver who is willing to go up against the feds. There will also be a class action lawsuit coming for those of us whose rights have been violated.

Just a moment...

A rally will be held July 1 at 10am in the store parking lot. VanHoose says people need to start standing up for their rights. They are calling it a Patriot Rally with a theme. That theme is SUBO. It stands for, Stand up or Bend Over.

I keep having more questions. Since the owner is claiming he needs $200,000+ for legal fees what criminal / civil charges or accusations are being made against the owner?

What rights of people who have purchased guns from him are being violated?

The people that are concerned that the Deep State now knows they are gunowners going to be the same people that are going to PUBLICLY protest at the rally meaning the Deep State agents can videotape and identify them?

The business has been listed for sale for almost one year. Why?

I am not making the connection to 2A or any other rights being violated. Even the provided link says "20 heavily armed IRS agents" not BATF agents. So far I am inclined this is about a business owner who has made poor decisions with accurately reporting income and not or underpaying his taxes.

Edit; I did not see Benton Quest comments when I made mine. I agree with him.

 

[BSA1]

Was at the shop today, the local ATF agent was present at the raid and in plain clothes. For 2 hours he told the shop not to let the IRS have the 4473s. ATF agent took a phone call and then advised the shop to give them up.

So how busy was the store?

How well stocked with merchandise are they?

Are they still selling firearms?

Was the shooting range busy?

Did you ask why the business is for sale?

 

[dave1918a2]

Search warrants are not permission slips, they are court orders issued only upon sworn testimony demonstrating probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that a search of certain premises will result in seizure of relevant evidence of said crime.

When a search warrant is served a true copy of the warrant must be given to the owner or occupant if present, or posted prominently on the property. Any items seized as a result of the warrant must be inventoried and a receipt provided. In cases requiring forced entry the officers are responsible for taking reasonable steps to secure the premises before leaving.

The judge issuing the search warrant may impose restrictions on service such as specifying "during normal business hours", "during hours of daylight", requirements to announce official presence and purpose, or just about anything deemed appropriate. Unless such limitations are ordered the warrant may be served at any time and using whatever tactics or methods deemed reasonably necessary by the officers. (The point here is that all warrants are "no knock warrants" unless the judge has issued such orders).

The warrant must specify the exact premises to be entered and the specific items to be seized; a warrant is not general permission to intrude at will. If the items sought are of significant size there is no general permission to search within areas not sufficiently large to contain the items. Items not specifically mentioned are found during the course of the search that are unlawful (contraband, stolen property, etc) those items may be seized and included in the inventory, and subsequently used as evidence in criminal proceedings.

None of this applies to Colorados Red Law.

 

[Waldo]

Precisely. One doesn't just wake up one day while doing the right thing only to be inexplicably targeted by an IRS criminal investigation.

I wonder how this would apply to Ken Ballew?