Is a "Letter of Authenticity" really a Letter of Authenticity ?

[TomkinsSP]

I spoke to Lamont when I picked up my latest purchase, Abraham Lincoln's Registered Magnum. He told me that his father would mail my "Certificate of Authenticty" once he returns from choir practice at Aunt Ester's church. Good enough for me.

 

[model3sw]

I think I have a “Letter of Authenticity”. Let me take a look. Yep, says “Letter of Authenticity”. Mine was mailed from a Nigerian prince so I know it has to be good.

Those have to be signed by Eddie Murphy or they are not valid !!! (Ref: Coming to America)

 

[Skwirl]

Those have to be signed by Eddie Murphy or they are not valid !!! (Ref: Coming to America)

Bingo, that's what's missing.
A comedian's signature.

But if spending big bucks, I'd prefer Mr. Jinks still.

I get your point your model3, its valid to me.
No matter what, it still boils down to "buyer be ware".

 

[Muss Muggins]

Pretty sure everyone is overthinking thos. It is what it is, nothing more, nothing less . . .

 

[reddog81]

For what it's worth Smith & Wesson's website calls the firearm history request a "letter of authenticity". The OP is correct, the letter doesn't really authenticate anything other than how the gun originally shipped.

However, I don't know what an actual factory authentication could do that a diligent buyer couldn't also do. An in person inspection should be able to verify if the finish is original, if the grips are the original style and fit appropriately, barrel is correct length, etc... I've never heard of anyone coming up with a fake S&W. I know there were early 20th century European knock offs, but anyone with any familiarity with S&W's should distinguish one of those. They could change the name but in the end it would be same thing.

 

[one eye joe]

I think it’s fine the way it’s, to may times we change things for what we think is better and it winds up destroying it. The letter has been fine up till now so why would you want to change it.
If you read the letter and have the gun in your hand and it doesn’t match the way it came from the factory then you can see it’s not Authentic. No?
Ted

I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT, IWK2HT. ALL YOU CAN "AUTHENTICATE" IS HOW IT WAS CONFIGURED, AND WHEN AND TO WHOM IT WAS SHIPPED.....

I HAVE FOOLISHLY INVESTED IN LETTERS FOR 2 OF MY FAVORITE M629s. AFTER CUTTING MY TEETH ON COLT HANDGUNS, AND SHOOTING 1911s, PYTHONS AND DIAMONDBACKS, EXCLUSIVELY, FOR 20 YRS, I STARTED READING ARTICLES BY ELMER KEITH. I BECAME ENAMORED OF THE .44 MAGNUM CARTRIDGE. SHOWING BRAND LOYALTY---I YEARNED FOR A COLT ANACONDA. I JUST DID NOT FALL IN LOVE, WHEN I FINALLY GOT MY HANDS ON ONE. I JUMPED SHIP FOR A LIGHTLY USED, M29 S&W......

I REALLY WAS DRAWN TO THE STAINLESS MODELS, FOR THEIR EASE OF MAINTENANCE AND DURABILITY OF FINISH. I ACCUMULATED 3, ALL USED, THAT SEEMED INTERESTING. I HAD NO BOXES, AND FEW CLUES, AS TO WHAT THEY WERE......

I HAD PURCHASED A 4" M629 THAT WAS SCRIPTED AS A "MOUNTAIN GUN". I DON'T KNOW WHAT I EXPECTED TO FIND OUT, BUT I LETTERED THE OTHER TWO. OF COURSE, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I KNEW VERY LITTLE ABOUT S&Ws. THE 8 3/8" M629, HAD AN UNFLUTED CYLINDER AND TURNED OUT TO BE A CLASSIC HUNTER. THE 3" TURNED OUT TO BE JUST AN ORDINARY PRODUCTION GUN--NOT A LEW HORTON, ETC. THE INFO ON THE LETTER WAS 90% BOILER PLATE, OTHER THAN SHIPPING DATE AND DESTINATION......

THIS IS NO BIGGIE, AND IMHO, HARDLY WORTH THE COST AND WAIT ON A MODERN GUN (FROM 1980 TO PRESENT)--UNLESS THERE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOTIVE. (TO DOCUMENT SOMETHING LIKE AN ASHLAND M617 WOULD BE A VALID EXCEPTION). THE STANDARD CATALOG, AND A QUERY ON OUR FORUM, WOULD PROBABLY PROVIDE ENUFF INFO TO SATISFY THE OWNER OF A NEWER GUN........

PICS OF THE 3 GUNS THAT I REFERENCE IN THIS POST, APPEAR BELOW.....

 

[DocB]

It's actually a Shipping Date Letter which (as we all know) can have very little to do with the actual date of manufacture or birthdate of the gun. I have a Smith that shipped nearly 30 years after it was manufactured. Guns that laid around for a decade or more before shipping are quite common. . .especially in the 1930's.

 

[Muss Muggins]

For what it's worth Smith & Wesson's website calls the firearm history request a "letter of authenticity". The OP is correct, the letter doesn't really authenticate anything other than how the gun originally shipped.

You do know that the factory doesn't send out the "factory" letters, right?

 

[model3sw]

About the closest thing I know to a true "Letter of Authenticity" for any gun, would be a Kopec letter on a Colt Cavalry or Artillery SAA.

Best regards,

Yes, my sentiments, exactly. Kopec seems to be "the" man on the Colt SAAs, especially the U.S. models. He requires a physical inspection even if it is one he had previously authenticated at some time in the past.

In the past I had send my early 1860 Colt Army to Herb Glass, Sr. to have him authenticate it (at that time in the mid 1990s) as it lettered shipped to Governor's Island Arsenal NYC, early 1861 (less than 2 weeks after the attack on Fort Sumter) but was void of any US Markings and, it was period nickeled (or "tinned" as Herb Glass stated). The revolver presented in outstanding condition and had no evidence of U.S. markings being removed.

Both Herb Glass and Col Pate affirmed that the first 2 US Orders of the 1860 Army, were not U.S. Marked only subsequently orders were Inspector marked. Herb also affirmed the "tinning" process was likely done at one of the N.Y.C.'s many qualified gunsmiths / gun stores (e.g. SH&G, MWR, etc.) and was usually done for Officers (as the enlisted man could usually not afford this) for the function of a protective coating as opposed to an embellishment for cosmetic purposes. NYC, at that time, was the hub of the gun industry in regard to craftsman and outlets to purchase and / or enhance (engrave / plate, etc).

He further explained that the Colt Factory (at that time) when rebuilding after a major fire, did not yet have the means or equipment to perform the plating process.

Was well worth the money I spent sending it to Herb to eliminate the doubt or conjecture of why it was "not" U.S. marked.

Mind, this was in the pre-internet days when data was not available at the touch of a button and any books on Colt 1860s I bought and read did not address this topic.

 

[model3sw]

It's actually a Shipping Date Letter which (as we all know) can have very little to do with the actual date of manufacture or birthdate of the gun. I have a Smith that shipped nearly 30 years after it was manufactured. Guns that laid around for a decade or more before shipping are quite common. . .especially in the 1930's.

My two factory Chromed, 1905 / 4th models have serial numbers consistent with being manufactured the 1930s however not shipped until 1960 to a N.Y.C. S&W distributor. Coincidentally, both were shipped to the same dealer on the same day.

 

[model3sw]

Now, that's funny. ^^^^^^

It "is" funny but can be well within reason. A letter you see could be a forgery. How many times has one of us purchased an old S&W with a poor copy of a S&W letter and / or a S&W letter (or copy) having the name of the person it was sent to, surgically removed with a razor blade ?

 

[reddog81]

You do know that the factory doesn't send out the "factory" letters, right?

What's your point? The Smith and Wesson website refers you to the SWHF for a "Letter of Authenticity"....

 

[kwill1911]

I understand Sal's concern. It is pretty common in the Colt world and increasingly common in the S&W world to see unscrupulous sellers using the terminology to mean the letter authenticates the gun for sale. It does not, as most of us understand. It merely authenticates the serial number. A recent auction had an early Colt Government Model for sale and hyped the two digit gun because it had a "letter of authenticity" showing it shipped to a famous shooter of the day. The gun was completely bogus but there was a debate on another forum about the letter "authenticating" the gun.

 

[gwpercle]

It's not a "Letter of Authenticity" it's a Factory Letter , based on the serial number , stating when the firearm shipped and the pertinent details of that firearm as at that time .
Nothing is "Authenticated" in the letter , it just states what shipped on what date.
Gary

 

[kwill1911]

The factory is not involved these days. It comes from the S&W Historical Foundation. Reading is fundamental.

 

[reddog81]

It's not a "Letter of Authenticity" it's a Factory Letter , based on the serial number , stating when the firearm shipped and the pertinent details of that firearm as at that time .
Nothing is "Authenticated" in the letter , it just states what shipped on what date.
Gary

That's the whole point of the thread. S&W and SWHF should call it what it is. Here's the quote from the SWHF website "The SWHF has partnered with Smith & Wesson to issue letters of authenticity on S&W firearms. Click on the link provided to access a PDF file of the Letter of Authenticity Request Form. Print the form, complete the information requested, and mail the form with your payment to the address indicated. You will receive your letter via return mail."

 

[Muss Muggins]

What's your point? The Smith and Wesson website refers you to the SWHF for a "Letter of Authenticity"....

That was my point . . .

 

[Club Gun Fan]

It's actually a Shipping Date Letter which (as we all know) can have very little to do with the actual date of manufacture or birthdate of the gun. I have a Smith that shipped nearly 30 years after it was manufactured. Guns that laid around for a decade or more before shipping are quite common. . .especially in the 1930's.

Doc
It's impossible to tell the date of manufacture. A frame doesn't get a serial number until it's nearly completed. It would be different if it was given a number as soon as it came out of the forge. I'd like to hear about your Smith that shipped 30 years after it was manufactured and tell me how you know when it was manufactured.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Exactly.

Do we have and lawyers in the house ? (this should be interesting).

This all started because of a VERY suspicious M13 Aircrewman presented to me within the past few months accompanied by a S&W letter, just like most of all of the many I have, only this one had in same type style (as subject line) "Letter of Authenticity" or in the lower note section after signatures where the author would code the letter as to who typed it an code for subject, etc.

Parchment was correct, signature (I "think" it was signed by Don) correct, raised perforated stamp over / near signature. I thought, perhaps, this was a new style letter ... never before recalling those words on any of Roy's letters.

None of my own letters from Roy are "titled" in such a manner, I found that odd but ... ok, but it could be.

It could also be that the letter was "Doctored" to add the words, "Letter of Authenticity" or it could have been printed by accident.

Then this AM pulling a new request form from the S&WHF website I see it listed as "letter of authenticity", I just HAD to ask.

Not a rant, but a matter of incorrect "terminology" that too often finds its way in to the bill of goods an unsavory seller might include in a fevered sales pitch, in the (all too familiar) style of a Coney Island carnival barker.

We've all read and heard some incredible sale pitches but someone adding anything to a S&W letter, including the words "Letter of Authenticity" when it was not there before, would be a new low. Not a surprising low, but a new one, anyway.

Sal
I think you should be asking Roy Jinks these question. He doesn't monitor this part of the forum. You could always send him a letter and post his reply here after. You do have his address. don't you?

 

[kraynky]

OP: What are ya? A lawyer or sumthin? Just kidding.

While what you say make sense, matching a serial numbered gun to the letter does "Authenticate" that that serial numbered gun came from the S&W factory in certain fashion, where it began it's journey and when. But it does not do much more. History of ownership would require other documents. Post manufacturing modifications would require yet another set of documents (IE Lew Horton).

I guess to me it Authenticates that S&W built the gun and when & where it became a used gun.