Is it ok to begin reloading w/ a progressive set up?

[VonFatman]

Mr. tomf52,

Sir, somehow while reloading I have managed:
---not blow up a gun, not to rip off any fingers, not lost an eye (both eyes are still in their respective sockets) and my targets end up full of holes in that black area near the center (I mostly shoot from 22-25 yards).

Crazy as this may seem to you and a few others, I have done all this since the early 2000s while pulling the handle of my Dillon 650 40k plus times. All prior to buying my single stage last year.

It appears to me that some of us have chosen a different reloading path from the majority and this is upsetting to those who did not.

Why assume those who would start with a progressive are less capable of reading, learning, thinking and making steady progress in this hobby because of the machinery we choose to use?

Are you assuming that good judgment is only available to those who begin reloading with a single stage press?

...interesting....
Does this also mean those who drive a stick are better drivers than those use a car/truck with an automatic transmission?

Respectfully submitted.

Bob

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by VonFatman:
Mr. tomf52,

Sir, somehow while reloading I have managed:
---not blow up a gun, not to rip off any fingers, not lost an eye (both eyes are still in their respective sockets) and my targets end up full of holes in that black area near the center (I mostly shoot from 22-25 yards).

Crazy as this may seem to you and a few others, I have done all this since the early 2000s while pulling the handle of my Dillon 650 40k plus times. All prior to buying my single stage last year.

It appears to me that some of us have chosen a different reloading path from the majority and this is upsetting to those who did not.

Why assume those who would start with a progressive are less capable of reading, learning, thinking and making steady progress in this hobby because of the machinery we choose to use?

Are you assuming that good judgment is only available to those who begin reloading with a single stage press?

...interesting....
Does this also mean those who drive a stick are better drivers than those use a car/truck with an automatic transmission?

Well - there you go again.....

Ruining a perfectly Luddite rant with fact and logic.

Have you no shame sir - have you NO shame?

 

[John R]

Buy whatever type of loading press you want, then learn how to run it.

Lee directions are very poor on their progressives, and unless you like to tinker with the press a lot, I would not recommend one of these presses for a beginner.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Are you assuming that good judgment is only available to those who begin reloading with a single stage press?

I think he is assuming everyone is like him!

You are just above the ordinary, Bob. Special, I think we call it!

By the way, if you get Bob upset, you have gone over the line!

Mechanical aptitude plays a big part in which press you choose. Lack of such can be overcome either with hands on help or video instruction. If you are "smarter than the average bear" you can get through it by yourself. There is a possibility for mistakes, always, hopefully not devastating ones!

 

[Paul5388]

I've had a Hornady LNL AP for about a week or so with the only shell plate I could find that was of any use. So, I've been making .38 Specials out of all of the unloaded brass I have laying around.

Since I have used single stage or turrets for 40+ years, I have to admit I still have some coordination problems with the LNL.

Since I have 5 stations to work with, I have installed a RCBS Lock Out die on the press. The way I have the Lock Out adjusted allows a powder charge as low as 4.0 gr and as much as 6.7 gr when the target weight is 6.5 gr. With it set that way, I don't have many worries about overloads, i.e. a potential KB, and I don't have to worry about squibs, i.e. little to no powder.

It's pretty obvious that the powder selection is going to influence the consistency of the final product. The choice of powder almost necessitates using a free flowing ball powder of some sort, as Dillon recommends.

Since I used to make a living as a mechanic, I think I have a reasonable degree of mechanical aptitude. However, operation of the LNL isn't getting too much easier, even with it being used more.

 

[Skip Sackett]

So to be politically correct Paul, would you say you are "coordinately challenged" ?

You are finding out what the rest of us progressive owners have known for a while, although I know you suspected it already, ball or small flake powders work best.

There are some people that would find it hard to believe you have one of those "new fangled things"! Just goes to show you that old dogs can learn new tricks!

Way to go brother.

I want to know how it works!

 

[Paul5388]

Actually Skip, I was saying it takes a lot more concentration on the next step that is happening with a multitude of other steps, all taking place at the same time.

With a turret or a single stage, concentration is placed on one activity at a time and anything out of the ordinary is easily dealt with.

When the progressive locks up, you have to determine whether it's a spent primer stuck where it shouldn't be, whether the primer seater has actually fully installed a new primer, whether the Lock Out die is lined up properly to allow a case to even be checked, whether the Lock Out has detected a case that's out of spec for powder, whether the bullet is aligned properly for it to enter the seating die and etc.

When things are going right, there isn't too much of concern. However, things don't always go right, more times than is suspected by non-operators.

 

[g17]

I'm with Bob (Von) on this. Buy right the first time and you are done. You can always pick up a good used single press for next to nothing to play around with. Saying all should start out with a single stage is about like saying all should start out with a single shot pistol and move up. Maybe I defy conventional wisdom but as stated earlier, I started out with a progressive over 20 yrs ago and in no time was spinning out 1000 rounds week to feed my habit and guess what, the accuracy was fine and I never blew anything up. I received my latest LNL AP this week. I put my name on Natchez's wait list last week, got an email Monday night and it was here is 2 days for $391. It has the new EZJect system and also now includes the pistol powder measure/rotor which is a real bonus. The only negative is that my older shell plates will not work with the new press so I either have to buy new ones or send the old to Hornady to be machined to work.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

...interesting....
Does this also mean those who drive a stick are better drivers than those use a car/truck with an automatic transmission?

Well, yeah. I thought everybody knew that.

Look, this argument is as old as the hills and twice as dusty.

The simple fact is, with a single stage press, there is only one thing going on at a time. A shell is riding up into a die. With a progressive press, there are about 4 or 5 things going on at once, depending on how many stages your press has. Plus, there is a mechanical linkage involved that may or may not be troublesome. Some of us felt more comfortable learning the mysteries of reloading starting out simple, with a single stage press, so that all of our attention could be on the job of reloading. Most of us since graduated to a progressive press, I have two. I kept the old single stage and still use it for rifle rounds where there is no necessity to be loaidng hundreds of rounds.

Others are a bit bolder and feel comfortable starting reloading on a progressive. More power to them.

My concern is the guy who is oblivious and just keeps yanking the handle when he has not idea what is really happening in the dies. I have seen plenty of bad ammo made by guys like that. On the other hand, if one has a little bit of patience and takes the time to fully understand what the machine is doing, as well as keeping in mind the basics of reloading, then by all means go ahead.

 

[dennis40x]

Originally posted by Driftwood Johnson:
Others are a bit bolder and feel comfortable starting reloading on a progressive. More power to them.

Yes some of us have gotten past the Stone Age. Others are still muddling around.

 

[Paul5388]

Some people are delusional about the quality of the ammunition they crank out on their space age equipment.

If you'll remember, I indicated a 2.7 gr spread to the powder weights allowed by the Lock Out die, with a target weight of 6.5 gr. That amounts to a potential 41.5% error the die will pass through. A Lee dipper will get you closer than that and the Lee dipper is sure enough stone age!

 

[dennis40x]

Originally posted by Paul5388:
Some people are delusional about the quality of the ammunition they crank out on their space age equipment.

The 2.7Gr spread I saw that. My thoughts were he’d better go back to using a dipper. Some people can’t handle progress.

 

[Paul5388]

Progress? The powder measure is the same design that has been used for over 40 years, except it doesn't have a micrometer adjuster like my 40 year old Redding #3 has.

Just because it has progressive in the name, it doesn't mean it's synonymous with progress.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Progress? The powder measure is the same design that has been used for over 40 years, except it doesn't have a micrometer adjuster like my 40 year old Redding #3 has.

We are talking about something the doesn't directly pertain to this thread, not that I am against hijacking one, but .................


I do have several questions about two things, Paul.

The powder measure; can you use your 40 year old one in place of the new one? Can you use the micrometer adjustment from the old one in the new one?

What kind of powder are you using? Not that most can't be used but, as you stated before, there are some that meter better through progressive equipment.

As a point of discussion: I use progressive equipment to load 223. At 26.5gr of BL-C(2) I get no variations at all. I have weighed case after case after case and there is simply no variation. The 2.7gr seems to be a bit much on such a light load. Could it be that the die simply CAN'T detect smaller variations? I'm not familiar with the Lock Out die so clue me in.

I have a "Dillon Powder Check Die" that can detect much closer variances, +/- .2gr. I have had it go off on military cases that the powder measured exactly what I was throwing in commercial cases. The thickness of the web and walls of the case made the powder be "higher" so it set off the alarm. If I set it up on a military case it would do just the opposite and show light on a commercial case. All the while being exactly the weight of powder that I wanted.

Could something like that be going on? Or is it simply a matter of adjustment?

What/how do you feel about the quality of the press Paul?

I'll tell you what. If you don't want to fool with it anymore, I'll give you what you have in it, plus shipping and you can keep the bullets.

 

[Paul5388]

Skip,

I just said the Lock Out powder die would allow that much variation, I didn't say the powder (SR 4756) was throwing that bad.

The die is set up to allow a case to enter the die, if it is within the specifications you set up. It does not allow a tighter range, nor does it whistle or set off a burglar alarm when it is out of spec. It simply will not let the case enter the die, which shuts down the entire operation.

At 26.5 gr of ball powder, you shouldn't get a detectable variation in thrown weights, but try that at 5.0 gr and see if it makes a difference.

Here's a check I did last year with the Redding #3, using the universal micrometer rotor.

As you can see, there are several ball type powders that didn't measure with no variation, especially in the 5.0 gr area.

I could use the Redding on the LNL or I can use the RCBS Uniflo on it. As we say in the old country, "machs nicht" which measure I use, since it's case activated. I will probably get the pistol micrometer for the Hornady powder measure, because it's a pain to adjust it the way it is.

 

[VonFatman]

The progressive/single-stage discussion comes up on a fairly regular basis and is a darn good reminder that regardless of the tools of our hobby, we all must have an "attitude toward safety".

Those who keep safety at in mind will produce quality ammunition. Those who fail to embrace this attitude stand a darn good chance to hurt themselves or others.

I appreciate everyone's comments...if you go back and look at what's been posted...EVERYONE here has replied in hopes that Mr. SLT223 reloads safely.

I really like the way you all think.

And of course as an added bonus, whenever I chime in I always manage to provide irrefutable evidence that I am full of bologna!

Bob

 

[straightshooter1]

I don't know where someone would get the idea that one can't load match grade rifle ammo on a Dillon 550.

I do. I load 30'06 and several other calibers and my reloads are more accurate than Federal Match.

About 10-12 Years ago, David Tubbs (perhaps you have heard of him) made a video showing how he loaded him match ammo on a Dillon. When I am trying for the ultimate accuracy, I use his method. If I am simply wanting under an inch groups, I just use the 550 as it was intended.

IMO, accuracy is a lot more dependent upon the dies, bullets, brass (and preparation of it) than the press. Then, of course, working up a load that works right in your rifle.

I will say, for Bench Rest competition, I might use a different press, but for High Power competition, the 550 works perfectly.

Bob

 

[m657]

In about 1980 I began my reloading career on the "NEW" 450 Dillon progressive.

That was upgraded to the 550 as soon as available.

I used that for nearly 20 years. Then I went to the 650 Dillon. I have NEVER used a single stage press.

The learning curve is steep, what isn't?

I've never used, owned, operated or wanted a single stage press.

Pay close attention to what you are doing, learn the sounds and subtle nuances of your press.

Good luck.

 

[Paul5388]

Here's a recent 3 shot group #1 son shot at 100 yards.

It wasn't a match grade gun, just an old unaltered 1965 M600 Remington with an 18.5" barrel, a Bushnell Banner scope and shot off of shot bags filled with sand.

The rounds were loaded on a Lee cast iron classic turret and I used a cheap Rem Core-Loc bullet. I also used 17.2 gr of Blue Dot, and that doesn't mean 17.3 gr or 17.1 gr.

Do you really think you can duplicate that load and results using a Dillon?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Do you really think you can duplicate that load and results using a Dillon?

I think you meant "with a progressive". Now that you have one it will be your job to see if it is possible. You have the rifle used for the first group, try it with ammo loaded on your L-N-L.

Personally, I would think you could, but that is just me. I can be proven wrong!

My thoughts: It may not be possible with Blue Dot and progressive equipment simply because of it being a flake powder. There MAY be metering issues, maybe not.
Is the assumption that weighing each charge is preferred for accuracy? Factory "Match Grade" ammo isn't loaded that way, is it? Has anyone ever gotten those kinds of results with it? I've known folks that have.

Just kind of thinking out loud.

By the way, tell PJ he shot real good!