Is it ok to begin reloading w/ a progressive set up?

[Paul5388]

Actually Skip, I did mean what I said with "Dillon", since that was the brand cited in a prior message about loading match ammunition.

No, I won't even attempt to duplicate on the LNL, especially since I only have a #6 shell plate, which is for .38 Special and etc.

Yes, I think the metering aspect is what would be the limiting factor in a duplication on any progressive. This shows how ridiculous it is to contend there is no need for a single stage, since ball powders aren't as versatile as flake or extruded powders. Another good example would be trying to meter 800X, which isn't going to happen with any consistency.

 

[johngalt]

That 2.7 gr spread on the lockout die isn't really relevant. The lockout die doesn't throw powder, it only checks for an APPROXIMATELY correct powder charge.

I use mine to catch squibs and double charges. Once I have my powder measure throwing what I want, I set the lockout die so that a correct charge passes the check, an empty case and a double charged case stops.

That is all the resolution I need. On my press, using a powder that meters well, there are only 3 conditions:

1) the powder measure threw the correct charge (almost always)
2) the powder measure didn't throw a charge at all (I had a problem when I had binding in the powder measure and it wasn't resetting)
3) I screwed up and put a charged case under the powder measure again, double charging it. I've never actually done this, but since it's possible I check for it.

There are no in-between conditions. The powder measure either throws a charge or it doesn't. The lockout die would be a real pain to set up if did only pass a case that was within .1 gr, I'm happy the window is fairly wide.

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by Paul5388:
Do you really think you can duplicate that load and results using a Dillon?

More importantly, do I CARE? The answer is NO.

Most, if not ALL, people using progressive presses will answer your question as I did. We aren't shooting benchrest rifle, don't need .001 MOA accuracy and won't spend 3 minutes loading each cartridge.

We're shooting disciplines that require large volumes of ammunition (stages that consume more than an entire BR match). That means a progressive press.

Those who know how to use them and pay attention to the necessary details also find they produce quite acceptable accuracy.

Different presses for different needs. What works for one doesn't necessarily suffice for the other.

 

[dennis40x]

Originally posted by dennis40x:

The targets are representative of center fire rifle ammunition loaded on a Dillon RL550B. The smaller target is (5) rounds at 200yds from the prone position on a reduced 300yd target. The larger target of the two targets is a standard 200yd target center (10) rounds from the standing position.

It should be noted that I employed a Redding powder measure mounted on the Dillon RL550B which must be operated manually. The powder used IMR4064. The (5) round group measured 2.06in @ 200yds.

The rifle employed a Remington - 40X with metallic sights. (The top rifle of the two in the photo)

It’s good enough for me.

 

[Skip Sackett]

dennis,
Nice shooting!

As for making target grade ammo on any progressive I must say it is entirely possible. The only place where one might have a qualm about inaccuracy is in the powder measure/dispensing portion of the process.

OK, here is a solution for those that are as "persnickety" as Paul ( I would have use the "A" word but chose not too!

).

Go ahead and remove the measure all together. Get a Lee powder through die for the caliber in question, weigh your charge and dump it into the case at that position. It will go through the powder check die and the other steps of the process are performed exactly the same as if you were doing them on a single stage.

Paul, another bit of information about shell plates, one you probably have already guessed but, there are really few different ones for the calibers most folks load. The one for the 308 and 30/06 will also work for the 45ACP. There are others that are interchangeable and a cross reference chart of some kind may be available from Hornady.

Best to you on your new endeavor!

 

[Paul5388]

The one for the 308 and 30/06 will also work for the 45ACP.

Not according to Hornady. There are #1 plates available, .30-06 type cases, but Hornady says there's a problem using them with .45 ACP and so they sell a #45 shell plate for it.

dennis,
Nice shooting!

+1

Of course, there's a world of difference between a 40X and a M600 and the group I posted was less than .5" outside to outside.

Most, if not ALL, people using progressive presses will answer your question as I did. We aren't shooting benchrest rifle, don't need .001 MOA accuracy and won't spend 3 minutes loading each cartridge.

We're shooting disciplines that require large volumes of ammunition (stages that consume more than an entire BR match). That means a progressive press.

Since I'm one of those progressive owners, the errors in those statements are pretty obvious. I don't shoot any kind of competition, including bench rest. However, I do expect a reasonable degree of accuracy in rifle ammunition, not what you tend to find in factory ammunition, that's loaded on a sure enough progressive.

 

[straightshooter1]

Paul-I don't use Blue Dot and I use either Sierra or the 173 grain Military match projectile (I have a few thousand hidden away since they are pretty much gone now) or cast bullets.

I use RL7, IMR 4198, and several others, but not Blue Dot.

So, I guess I can't duplicate your load, but as to the accuracy, sure.

Again, I don't think it is so much the press as the other factors.

Tubbs was loading a 7mm Mag in the video he made, and shooting at 1000 yards-using a Dillon. This was several years ago, and I don't know if he is still loading on a Dillon. He was using Sierra bullets, but I don't recall the powder or primers.

But, I am not wanting to argue, anyone is free to use any press available. I believe the Dillon will work for most reloaders, but YMMV.

Bob

 

[rundownfid]

Dennis;
Wow, that is fine shooting, especially off your hind legs. I don't shoot anything that requires better than minute of angle. However, if I get that varmint rifle I might just have to weigh each charge individually, etc, but then I'll probably not shoot as many rounds in a groundhog season as I do in a single IDPA match. As mentioned above the equipment that is most appropriate depends on the activity being pursued.

 

[johngalt]

Originally posted by Paul5388:

The one for the 308 and 30/06 will also work for the 45ACP.

Not according to Hornady. There are #1 plates available, .30-06 type cases, but Hornady says there's a problem using them with .45 ACP and so they sell a #45 shell plate for it.

When I bought my LNL about 1.5 years ago, the #1 was the .45 auto shellplate. It mostly works ok. The only problem I have is intermittently when I seat a bullet, it will hit the edge of the die instead of going in, jamming the bullet way down in the case.

Since the #45 shellplate is supposed to work better, I got one along with the EZ-Eject upgrade. I haven't used it yet, so I don't know if it really is better.

 

[dennis40x]

Originally posted by rundownfid:
Dennis;
Wow, that is fine shooting, especially off your hind legs.

I have my bad days also a lot more often than I’d like to admit.

 

[straightshooter1]

Boy, I sure know what you mean Dennis. I find my eyes failing me a lot these days.

Even in trap shooting, I find I shoot better in the morning and can't see the targets as well, later in the day.

I hope they don't get worse as I am in my early 60s and hope to shoot well for another few years.

Bob

 

[m657]

RE:

Do you really think you can duplicate that load and results using a Dillon?

Nice shooting. Impressive target. Where's the 4-5 shots?

A buddy of mine showed me his latest project rifle: Rem 700 something or other 223....

It made a 3 shot 1-hole group at 100 yards off the bags. I couldn't believe it. He had me sit down and do the same on my own target. I have never shot anything that tight. Not a cloverleaf, not a "ragged hole".....just a barely visible larger-than-223 hole.

I'm not a rifle guy. He wouldn't tell me what his magic load was. It did come off a Dillon.

I also have a camera phone photo of my own factory loaded 17HMR bench rested at 50 yard target....

10 shots into smaller than a 1/2 dime size group. Nice, for me.

Probably progressive loaded.

Actually, I think the issue is 'how much is too much' variation in powder drop on a progressive.

I shoot pistols. And not well enough for that .1 gram variance to be much of an issue.

 

[Smitty500Mag]

Probably 75% of the people telling you not to go with a progressive press first have never even used a progressive press in their life. Buy a progressive and use it like a single stage until you are ready then go progressive. It'll save you money in the long run.

Smitty

 

[Paul5388]

As I said, I happen to be a progressive owner, and I still say go with a single stage or turret first. You probably didn't learn to drive in a Corvette with 4 spark plug wires pulled off, so why do you think one round at a time is such an improvement?

If my progressive loads in .38 Special don't shoot 1" at 100 yards, I consider them to be fodder and will separate them out for plinking loads in a handgun or something to shoot hogs with.

I shot some progressive loads today out of a 6" M14-2 and a 4" M&P, 6.5 gr of SR 4756 with a 158 gr RCBS 38-150-KT. They're at least MOBG at 15 yards, but not nearly as accurate as the same load in my M28-2. Now I need to see what they'll do out of 22" of barrel at 100 yards.

I'm not really interested in shots 4 and 5, since that many shots is highly unusual in a hunting situation, even for hogs.

 

[glypnir]

Originally posted by VonFatman:
Mr. shovelwrench,
I would respectfully suggest that you are making a a couple of inaccurate assumptions:

1) You are assuming Mr. SLT223 is buying his press to compete in matches. He never mentioned this in the thread.

2) You may also be assuming we (the other reloaders out here in reloading land) reload to produce "match ammo". Sir, I would suggest a good many of us thoroughly enjoy this hobby with nary a care if our output would group a 1/10th inch tighter at Camp Perry.

3) You also may have assumed that the average handgun shooter can hold a gun steady enough at 25 yards to make precision reloading important/needed for what many/most of use do at the range.

4) And lastly, it would appear that you believe that we who started reloading on progressives were unable to hone our reloading skills because of our choice of tool. You have suggested we will find a pile of "ammo, that REALLY DOESN'T PERFORM" at the end of our rainbow. Well sir, that is quite an assumption and I would suggest you are full of bologna.

But thanks for thinking of us!

Bob

Amen to that. I'm reloading for practicing with my S&W Model 640. I'm reloading .38 Specials. I have just, with those nice Jerry Miculek videos that someone posted a link to, gotten to the "one ragged hole" accuracy level - that's at 9 feet. Now I'm working on 15 feet. I'm using minimum loads.

It's a revolver, so I don't have to worry a whole lot about having just the right amount of recoil to make the next round feed right.

If the OAL is a bit long, that's not a real problem either, since I've got a .357 magnum cylinder.

I'm not worried about maximum velocity, since it's only got to go out there and hit the paper.

I'm not that worried about high volume, because I've also got a snubby Model 63. I shoot a lot more .22 LR than I do .38 special.

So my normal sequence is to shoot about 100 or maybe 200 rounds of .22 in the Model 63 and work on whatever I want to work on.

Then shoot maybe 25-50 rounds of my light .38 specials to make sure that it works with the different sights on the 640. Then, a cylinder or 2 of something relatively nasty: .38 +P, .regular .357, or the short barrel .357 that I actually carry.

It kind of works for me, I don't have any ambitions to shoot match stuff. I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone.

I may, someday, when I'm feeling richer and more financially secure, and assuming I'm still shooting, buy a progressive.

Now, I don't want to imply that I am a real slob with the rounds I make. (We'll keep my eating habits out of this.

)

I weigh every powder charge to .1 grains. I seat the bullets very carefully and precisely. I use the extra die to get a factory roll crimp. I arrange the build sequence so that only one case has powder in it a time. I put the powder in the case, and then immediately seat the bullet.

I have had some stuff to work through. I wasn't really flaring the cases enough, so I was deforming the bullet noses a bit putting them in.

 

[Paul5388]

Now I need to see what they'll do out of 22" of barrel at 100 yards. Wink

The same loads will stay in a #3 washtub at 100 yards, but that doesn't seem like it's very usable.

However, just to make a fair judgment, I'll load some with weighed charges and see what they'll do. After all, it could be the bullet not performing well at longer ranges (these today were RCBS 38-150-KT)

 

[bigt5150]

My first and only press has been a Dillon 550B I read alot of books and talked to alot of reloaders before I decided on a press. In the end I decided that the Dillon was right for me. As with anything, there is a brief learning period but the 550B is easy to learn, easy to master, and produces great ammo. Dillon customer service is also great should you need it.

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by glypnir:
I have had some stuff to work through. I wasn't really flaring the cases enough, so I was deforming the bullet noses a bit putting them in.

Insufficient case belling deforming the noses of your bullets?!?

How - were you loading them backwards?

 

[Skip Sackett]

How - were you loading them backwards?

Too soft of lead, seating plug wrong type of for profile of bullet, case walls thick causing undersized ID, bullets too big, seating too deep and compressing the powder, too light of a bell.

Pick any one or combination thereof!

I have had this problem when trying to use as cast bullets from some Lee molds. Some of their 45ACP (H&G #68 copy) molds tend to throw bullets at .454"! If one of the other conditions exist too, it is very easy to deform a nose.

 

[Amici]

Originally posted by smith crazy:
Too soft of lead, seating plug wrong type of for profile of bullet, case walls thick causing undersized ID, bullets too big, seating too deep and compressing the powder, too light of a bell.

Pick any one or combination thereof!

I have had this problem when trying to use as cast bullets from some Lee molds. Some of their 45ACP (H&G #68 copy) molds tend to throw bullets at .454"! If one of the other conditions exist too, it is very easy to deform a nose.

A bullet, yes; a nose - using the wrong seating plug will, but usually in conjunction with other issues. Note that the poster did not cite that as a problem and is almost certainly experienced enough to spot and cure it.

Seating too deep might damage the nose, but it takes work!

Insufficient belling will first manifest itself by shaving the base and side; in extreme cases it may even crush the case. Cases too thick or undersized will also damage the base long before the nose of the bullet, as will too-soft lead and/or oversized bullets.

Think it through: The sharp edge of the case will cause damage to the bullet long before the seating plug will, which means the nose of the bullet is the last to be damaged.