Is My Post War 38 well traveled?

[docbrazos]

Picked up a 38 S&W CTGE 5 Screw chambered for 38 special. It apears to be well Traveled. The Poor Picture of the fornt sight Says "Parker Hale w/ England underneath. Under side of the barrel on a flat is the serial number that Matches the frame and 4 Tons PER along with 38 special. On the left side in front of the trigger guard is a set of crossed swords and there are proof marks of a Crown and under them what apears to be a BNP. This appears on the barrel, Frame where the barrels is screwed in and on Each chamber of the Cylinder. On the Frame where Model numbers are on newer gun are the numbers 32929 but the serial number is 785XXX . apears the only thing missing is th Lanyard ring and the Pin.
So, what did I stumble into.

 

[JSR III]

BNP is Birmingham Nitro proof which is I believe the symbol used when the gun was sold out of the governement stores. The front sight was obviously changed out by the British company Parker Hale. The 4 tons is I believe a pressure test marking. The 32929 is an assembly number and will be found on the yoke, the frame and under the sideplate. This is an internal factory number used to keep fitted parts together during the assembly process. Means nothing now except that the parts belong together.

The stocks are not original to the gun. I am guessing that this is a .38 M&P 4th model that was sent to Britian for WWII in the lend lease program.

Are you sure that it is .38 S&W Special? I can't quite make out the caliber in the photo.

 

[docbrazos]

Wow

That's a good start on what I wanted to know and fast too. The markings under the barrel say 38 special and it will not chamber a 38 S&W even though that's what the barrel says. Any idea on value? And since you mentioned it, What grips would be original.

Serial number hard to read could be 785XXX or 795XXX. So where would that put it by year of manufacturing.

 

[H Richard]

You mention it is a 38 S&W, but then "4 Tons PER 38 Special. I feel it is a 38/200 Victory model, which was converted to 38 Special by a British firm after the War. Depending on how the conversion was done it may be fine, or if the chambers were just reamed out deeper, could cause you problems when firing it. The 38/200 was a 38 S&W (larger diameter round) than the 38 Special. Firing a 38 Special round in a reamed chamber can cause a case to split and jam in the chamber. Some conversions were done by sleeving the chambers, and those are usually very satisfactory for shooting.

 

[DCWilson]

The serial number puts it in 1941. This was considered a British Service Revolver when it shipped, also called the K-200. It probably had a five inch barrel, or even six. Parker Hale cut the barrel to four, mounted a new front sight, and probably sleeved the cylinder so it would handle only .38 Special ammo, and no longer accept .38 S&W. A lot of British contract revolvers were converted and came back to the United States after the war. This is clearly one of the more responsible conversions.

I think it may have been refinished. The markings look a little soft to me, and the blue a little too good for a war contract revolver. Given the quality of the conversion, a refinish would not surprise me. Looks like P-H wanted to make this gun right for its intended market.

I enlarged the photo in question, and original cartridge designation on the barrel is indeed .38 S&W CTG.

One last thought: is the serial number on the back of the cylinder the same as the serial number on the butt of the gun? If not, or if there is no serial number on the cylinder at all, it may be a replacement cylinder rather than a sleeved one. I imagine P-H could get some .38 Special cylinders without too much trouble if they wanted to.

 

[feralmerril]

If the .38 s&w was reemed out longer to fit .38 special, than the .38 s&w cartridge should still fit. Since you said it dont, I suspect a .38 special cartridge clyinder must have been found and fitted up to it. It was a popular thing to do years ago. Still the barrel is a tad large for special, but they work.

 

[Art Doc]

This is another (at least 5 per week are posted here) butchered up M&P made for Great Britain in WWII. The Parker Hale "conversions" are more nicely done but the gun has still been cut up, reamed out and in my opinion has very little to no value.

It started as a 38 S&W with a 5" barrel. After the war the barrel was cut to 4" and the chambers reamed for the longer but smaller in diameter 38 Special. Accuracy is not good and the cases bulge or split. You can shoot the correct 38 S&W ammo.

There are literally tens of thousands of these guns out there usually being purchased at outrageous prices by unsuspecting buyers. One local dealer has one (with a crappy nickel plate refinish as an added bonus) that he has tagged at $565. It's all I can do to keep from laughing out loud every time i see it. Then I realize eventually he'll con someone into buying that, and it makes me want to cry.

 

[Engine49guy]

Bought this one a few years back ,
My need to know about it brought me to this site and lit the fire for my love of all things S&W.

If anyone is specifically looking to trade for a PH conversion Victory PM me.

 

[JSR III]

I understand what SP is saying however, I have to disagree about wanting or having one. It may be a freak or an abomination to some, but they did exist and it is part of the history of S&W firearms.

I may have to seek one out now just to have one in my collection.

 

[docbrazos]

Thanks for all the great information. Yes on closer inspection the Chamber has been sleaved and the serial number is matching to the Gun. The good part is the Serial number is easy to read. The Number is 795XXX not 785 as I first thought.
Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder. With the Proper grips installed now and Knowing this gun has been to England and has been refurbished by a wonderful old firm and is probably a Lend lease gun makes it a wonderful addition to my colection.

 

[DCWilson]

Thanks for all the great information. Yes on closer inspection the Chamber has been sleaved and the serial number is matching to the Gun. The good part is the Serial number is easy to read. The Number is 795XXX not 785 as I first thought.
Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder. With the Proper grips installed now and Knowing this gun has been to England and has been refurbished by a wonderful old firm and is probably a Lend lease gun makes it a wonderful addition to my colection.

Thanks for the additional information.

[DELETED ERRONEOUS COMMENT HERE ABOUT LEND LEASE TIMING.]

 

[docbrazos]

so the 795xxx serial number dates the gun to?

 

[DCWilson]

so the 795xxx serial number dates the gun to?

Still 1941, probably around the middle of the year or into the summer. At this time S&W was pumping these guns out at 10000-12000 units a month, so a serial number difference of 10,000 really amounts to no more than a few weeks in terms of the production clock.

By the way, I was wrong about lend/lease timing. The law was signed in March of 1941, so materiel like these late pre-Victory S&Ws could have been produced and provided under the provisions of that law.

 

[docbrazos]

Great info I think's it may be a keeper. 358 bullet won't start down the barrel easily so I guess the next step will be get it on paper.
My thanks again for all the reply's!

 

[2LtCal]

Couldn't agree more. With a history like that "... it's a keeper."
I likewize I have a Parker Hale conversion that chabers 38 spl and not 38 s&w, with what appears to be chamber sleeves and a barrel proof stamped to 38 special.
What history! and fine with light load 38 spl.
Cheers!

 

[popgun]

A lot of S&W revolvers were sent to Enland before lend lease to satify the failed Carbine contact for the S&W carbine that the company failed to deliver.

 

[Green Frog]

This topic inspires all sorts of mixed feelings in my feeble head. First, we see the beauty of original collectible pieces, with a premium sometimes even placed on the originality of otherwise pedestrian models. Second come the well worn and well used pieces with provenance... frequently from family or historical figures. They take on a "luster" of their own. Third are the custom pieces. They occupy a special if somewhat controversial niche, but for somebody at least, they seemed like a good idea at the time! Finally, there are the well used, sometimes carelessly, sometimes lovingly, pieces that we carry or have close at hand for years... trusted companions on which we might have to bet our lives. These will frequently fall into the third grouping above or may be simple basic variants that will eventually fall into category two. All of these have their own right to a place at the gun owner's table and most of us would accept them there gladly.

Other guns will appear in our lives that have suffered from some or much mistreatment. I remember an example of a .44 Spl N-frame that kicked off about 3 pages of discussion from people who regarded it all the way from boat anchor to a great opportunity. These guns may inspire loathing in the purists, but to the true lover of guns for guns' sake will see them as potential projects to be lovingly restored or radically customized or something in between. These sometimes end up as treasured possessions or trusted companions (or both.)

The readers of this board each have their goals and aspirations as well as their financial capabilities that overlay their responses to the categories above, and almost any gun can find an appreciative owner like a puppy finds a child. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Froggie

PS ... and the OP has every "right" to keep and enjoy his new acquisition, or regard it as fodder to customize, or whatever he wants. It's his!

 

[2152hq]

The Crown/BNP is the British Birmingham Proof House mark for Nitro/Smokeless proof. It's a post WW2 mark and with all the chambers of the cylinder individually proof marked as well, I'd guess it was pre-1954.

Any surplus military arm, any firearm with work done to it's frame, bbl, locking mechanism, etc must be reproofed before civilian sale or return to a customer.

The '4 tons' is the proof pressure applied before commercial sale.
It usually has a marking with it ' /per sq in' or sometimes 'per []"

4 tons is the proof applied for 38 Special.
38S&W used 3 1/2 tons
38S&W usually designated as 38".767 in the proof stamp info.
The .767 being the case length.

 

[walnutred]

If what you were looking for was a shooter rather than a collectors item I expect you will be very happy with it. When these guns were converted England still had some of the best gunsmiths in the world. Do yourself a favor though and don't just try it with cheap ammo and give up. I've heard more than one person complain about the accuracy of an old S&W 38 Special. In talking to them I find out the only ammo they've fired in it was WWB 130gn FMJ from Wally World. Find some descent 148ng wadcutters or 158 gn SWC and I bet she shoots well.

 

[Speedo2]

Some Thoughts on a Thanksgiving Morning

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