Is STATE MANDATED safety training really necessary?

I personally am against mandated training for a few reasons.

When it comes to exercising a Constitutional right I find having to ask permission from the state appalling. When you look at the events (namely the American Revolution) that led to the formation of this country and what it took to get there. I don't know how anyone could argue that the public being armed didn't play a huge role in the wining of the war. Imagine if they weren't. To think our fore fathers didn't want the threat of another revolution to influence the actions of our future government is not paying attention to history. Think about that any time you consider government approval needed for anything to do with firearms. I believe our fore fathers would be equally appalled with many of the licensing requirements we see today. Does anyone actually believe the Bill of Rights would have been ratified if there was a provision calling for the citizens to pass a mandated class and get government permission to carry a firearm? I think this speaks volumes to what was their original intent.

Here is another reason I disagree. While in theory the mandated class would make it safer for the public at large (I am not so sure it does. More on that in a minute). This by itself is not enough in and of it's self to mandate it. It would be safer for the public if we had no speed limits above 50mph, disallowed swimming pools, etc. I think you get my point. These are just a couple of many thousands of things that would make us safer and we don't do them. So calling for mandated classes that there has been no evidence that I have seen that makes us safer, makes absolutely no sense to me. It is not always the government's role to make us as safe as possible anyway. That would call for totalitarianism and liberty matters.

Here's one last thing to consider. When the state issues a license for anything that requires training. It implies a level of competency, not perfection but competency. If it didn't then there would be no need for the training. I fear there are a larger number than anyone wants to admit that has their CC permit and because of it feel their competency level is much higher than it truly is. This does not add to the safety of the public.

If the government wants to get involved with making the public safer as far as firearms go. I think a tax credit for training paid to the instructor directly would do a whole lot more than the mandated classes and licenses. It also wouldn't disenfranchise some of the people who need protection the most. I would talk about how to pay for it but that would require political talk. So I'll just say we could find a way if we really want the government this involved in this Constitutional right.
 
There is power in numbers. Over the years I have meet a lot of people that told me they didn't like guns and became at least more tolerant and quite a few that ended up purchasing after experiencing a plinkin trip/range trip. Training in schools might get an increase in the ranks and if not at least a more rounded look at firearms, not to mention the safety factor.
 
No state requires training to exercise the first amendment rights.

No state should require training to exercise second amendment rights.

Your correct sir. However, you can't kill someone by shooting off your mouth. I have no issue with training for anyone unfamiliar with firearms.
 
There is, and should not be, a training requirement to purchase, possess, or carry a firearm openly. If one wants to carry a firearm concealed, some training could apply, if the state wishes, because concealed firearms have always been an item of concern, and I think they should be regulated. I equate it to the right to travel peaceably between the various states. If you do it on foot, no issues. If you use a motor vehicle, you are subject to additional evidence of training/competency.

Just my thoughts . . .
 
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Interesting thread! Personally, it's simple. If you are in charge of protecting yourself/family, no training required. If you are in charge of protecting any segment of the general population (i.e. law enforcement, security, neighborhood watch, schools, etc.), yes some degree of training should be required. Of course the real question is what should that training consist of?
 
...it's simple. If you are in charge of protecting yourself/family, no training required.

Yep, there you go. Just buy a gun and hope for the best. Don't read the manual, and don't even consider learning about sight picture, grip, stance, overall safety, and all those other little unimportant details. That'll work for sure.
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Yep, there you go. Just buy a gun and hope for the best. Don't read the manual, and don't even consider learning about sight picture, grip, stance, overall safety, and all those other little unimportant details. That'll work for sure.

I never said it shouldn't be encouraged for everyone! These days I try to avoid public ranges during busy periods for just that reason.
 
90% of new gun owners don't even read the manual before they use the gun. MAYBE AFTER they shoot it to figure out how to fieldstrip it (if they even bother to clean it).
 
If not the state, then who. I really believe when people carry a deadly weapon they should have training on how to handle it. I didn't mind paying a hundred dollars to take the class. What I did mind was paying the state for the permit. I learned much in the training class that I would not have been exposed to otherwise. I don't like someone carrying a gun without safety training.
 
90% of new gun owners don't even read the manual before they use the gun. MAYBE AFTER they shoot it to figure out how to fieldstrip it (if they even bother to clean it).

You can mandate a training class but how do you mandate that the students pay attention? How do you mandate that they follow the rules after the class?
 
90% of new gun owners don't even read the manual before they use the gun. MAYBE AFTER they shoot it to figure out how to fieldstrip it (if they even bother to clean it).
I never read it. Most guns are the same basics. I just youtube it if i dont know.
 
I find it interesting that many here will work to avoid people at ranges because of the unsafe gun handling. Yet, they are opposed to training. What a world.
 
I never read it. Most guns are the same basics. I just youtube it if i dont know.

Some of the videos I have seen on YouTube are pretty bad. Not gonna trust anything to somebody with zero knowledge and a webcam. I'd rather get my info from the source.

A good friend of mine bought an XD9 a few years ago. He fired 100 rounds and that was it. He lived in Florida at the time so I never saw him. I made the trip and asked about his gun. Showed it to me in the sock drawer. No magazine in it. Said he kept the mag on a shelf in his closet so his kid couldn't get to the gun and fire it. I racked the slide. Round pops out. It had been there for 2 years.
 
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I find it interesting that many here will work to avoid people at ranges because of the unsafe gun handling. Yet, they are opposed to training. What a world.

Please cite the post in which anyone said they were opposed to training, several have stated that they were opposed to state mandated training no one has said they were opposed to training
 
Please cite the post in which anyone said they were opposed to training, several have stated that they were opposed to state mandated training no one has said they were opposed to training

But most don't get any. Look through this thread. Time and again people leaving ranges and shaking their heads at the untrained idiots. They're not that rare. I see them everytime I shoot on a crowded day.

I remember watching a guy buy a pistol grip Mossberg 500 and 200 rounds of OO buck. As he was about to leave, he asked "where the clip goes".m clerk informed him it didn't take a "clip". Guy shrugged and left.
 
Your correct sir. However, you can't kill someone by shooting off your mouth. I have no issue with training for anyone unfamiliar with firearms.

Amen to that.

I've been swept several times at public ranges. One range I go to has ballistic glass separators. One day I looked down to my right and a person that I could tell was a novice had leaned a shot gun against the glass and I was looking down the big round hole of business.

Another guy had a novice companion in the stall with him, and she had no firearms discipline at all. I decided to just leave the range that day.

How on earth anyone can just randomly sweep others is beyond me. And don't even get me started on the violations of the other gun safety rules.

So yes, I am a firm believer in people that are new to firearms receiving training. It's just that I don't think the Gubbermint can mandate it given the Second Amendment.

Now perhaps in the future an oppressive training scheme cooked up to deny licenses will be challenged. Then perhaps the courts will examine post-Heller whether a state can 1) require carry permits at all; 2) and if so, can mandate training; and 3) if the answer to 2 is yes, then set the limits on what the state can require.

Until then, there are good arguments for both for and against the state being able to mandate training.

(I must note that after nearly 100 posts this thread has remained very civil, which reflects well on the members here!)
 
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Do you agree that a citizen can be disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights? Scalia seems to think he can . . . This, to me, seems to constitute the "well regulated" part of the Amendment.

This is incorrect. "Well regulated" as understood by the Framers of the Constitution, meant well trained. Colonial provinces and post colonial states requires all able bodied males above the age of 18 (I think) to the age of 60 to be members of the local militia. As such, they had to own weapons of good quality and suitable for military use. Part of suitable for military use included the provision for attaching a bayonet as at the time, the main purpose of a long gun was to hold a bayonet.

The Founders of this nation didn't like the idea of a standing army. For most of American history, the regular military was small and augmented as needed by units from the several states. Citizens were expected to be proficient with firearms and owning them was the norm, not the exception.

I highly recommend that you purchase and read "Armed America" by Clayton Cramer. He's an amateur historian of some repute. His work on guns in America has been quoted in several legal briefs. I believe his work was even used in Heller.

I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials.


-George Mason
 
Constitutional right. No government mandated training/licensing.

All the crying about public safety is BS.

Gun owners do just fine with their freedom, it's been demonstrated time and time again despite the persistent handwringing.
 
But most don't get any. Look through this thread. Time and again people leaving ranges and shaking their heads at the untrained idiots. They're not that rare. I see them everytime I shoot on a crowded day.

We as a community of responsible gun owners should do what we can as a people to help, educate, and encourage those new to firearms. ...NOT the government. The key is LESS gov't!
 
How do you know that said idiots are untrained? Police officers are trained and yet negligent discharges, leaving guns in bathrooms, and loss of issued firearms are not particularly unusual.

My point being that every one of these people is presumably trained in handling firearms, yet they all lost control of said firearms in some manner.

I won't taint this thread by posting the Youtube video of the DEA agent telling kids that he was "The only one professional" enough to handle a gun, just before he shot himself in the foot.

I'm not bashing anyone, police or civilian, because these things can happen. Training doesn't necessarily prevent them or even make them less likely to happen.

But most don't get any. Look through this thread. Time and again people leaving ranges and shaking their heads at the untrained idiots. They're not that rare. I see them everytime I shoot on a crowded day.

I remember watching a guy buy a pistol grip Mossberg 500 and 200 rounds of OO buck. As he was about to leave, he asked "where the clip goes".m clerk informed him it didn't take a "clip". Guy shrugged and left.
 
This is incorrect. "Well regulated" as understood by the Framers of the Constitution, meant well trained. Colonial provinces and post colonial states requires all able bodied males above the age of 18 (I think) to the age of 60 to be members of the local militia. As such, they had to own weapons of good quality and suitable for military use. Part of suitable for military use included the provision for attaching a bayonet as at the time, the main purpose of a long gun was to hold a bayonet.

The Founders of this nation didn't like the idea of a standing army. For most of American history, the regular military was small and augmented as needed by units from the several states. Citizens were expected to be proficient with firearms and owning them was the norm, not the exception.

I highly recommend that you purchase and read "Armed America" by Clayton Cramer. He's an amateur historian of some repute. His work on guns in America has been quoted in several legal briefs. I believe his work was even used in Heller.

I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials.


-George Mason

Do you agree that a citizen can be disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights?
 
But most don't get any. Look through this thread. Time and again people leaving ranges and shaking their heads at the untrained idiots. They're not that rare. I see them everytime I shoot on a crowded day. .

Please explain how forcing that person to sit through a class they don't want to be in is going to change anything.

Please be specific
 

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