Is the .380 enough?

[Kanewpadle]

Of course I understand that it's a personal choice. It's all about the individual in America, I get it. "It's what works for me" is the mantra of every arm chair forum commando who never actually had to use their guns in combat or self defense. But there are others who have and they have something to teach us.

You say only a fool selects a caliber based on someone else's opinion? How so? Do you think that ballistics is all a matter of opinion? You think that someone basing their ammo choice in order to best save their lives and/or the lives of their loved ones on what experts in the field are recommending and using is a fool? Are you serious?

And it most certainly does matter what our military and law enforcement are using because most of them don't have a "personal choice" in the matter. They have guidelines to follow and have to carry the approved guns/ammo which, coincidentally are not .380's. There is a reason for this and it isn't budget constraints or a lack of knowledge about firearms from higher ups, it's because they just don't work all that well and/or are not as reliable as other, more larger calibers. This is not a matter of opinion but of ballistics, science and street/battlefield credibility.

You're missing the point. You're telling us what we already know. Preaching to the choir.

The OP asked if the 380 is enough. It is extremely obvious that you don't think so.

State your case and move on.

 

[oink]

You're missing the point. You're telling us what we already know. Preaching to the choir.

The OP asked if the 380 is enough. It is extremely obvious that you don't think so.

State your case and move on.

LOL, well you could have let him have the last say/post and let it die. It works both ways. Personally I've been done with the "argument" but I couldn't pass up something so obvious. I'll fade away again now.
Or I could go to the other thread and bash 38 special J frames snubbies as primary carry guns. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

 

[Kanewpadle]

LOL, well you could have let him have the last say/post and let it die. It works both ways. Personally I've been done with the "argument" but I couldn't pass up something so obvious. I'll fade away again now

So...... three is a party?

 

[Wise_A]

The .380acp has been around since before the 1911 came along yet in all that time our military/police are still not issuing it to this day. This fact cannot be ignored and it begs the question "why?"

Ignoring plainclothes and BUGs, police duty weapons are full-size to "compact", where the advantages of a .380 are somewhat lost. Ironically, plainclothes guys have carried .380s (and still do, I'm sure), and plenty of BUGs are chambered in .380. Not that what the police or military carry has anything at all to do with what a citizen should carry, because their missions are entirely different. Do you wear a kevlar helmet and plate carrier, festooned with batons, spare mags, flashlights, and so on? Huh! I guess you don't necessarily want what the "pros" use!

But whatever. The entire "police and military use X" argument is empty, hollow, and originated by feckless instructors who want to use the two years they spent fixing radios in Turkey to sell classes. It's perpetuated by everybody else that feels their 18-shot .357 Sig Blastomatic 9000 somehow means **** won't stick to them. Protip: bad stuff still happens, and people that deserve to live still die.

Is .380 enough? Sure. It's a gun, and bullets still come out the end. It still stops people, and kills people. .22 Mag is enough, and .22LR is enough, and 9mm is enough, and .38 and .44 and .45 are all enough. You can lug around more gun, and it might make a difference, or it might not.

If you do not believe a particular cartridge is enough, I encourage you to take the Two Shot Challenge. Next time at the range, bring one of those "not enough" guns, stand in front of the backstop (safety first!), and have a buddy put one in your gut.

If you feel like asking him to shoot you again, well, guess you're right. It wasn't enough. Here's a cookie.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's...

The NYPD issued officers engaged in undercover Narcotics purchasing .32 caliber Berettas.

 

[Echo40]

Ignoring plainclothes and BUGs, police duty weapons are full-size to "compact", where the advantages of a .380 are somewhat lost. Ironically, plainclothes guys have carried .380s (and still do, I'm sure), and plenty of BUGs are chambered in .380. Not that what the police or military carry has anything at all to do with what a citizen should carry, because their missions are entirely different. Do you wear a kevlar helmet and plate carrier, festooned with batons, spare mags, flashlights, and so on? Huh! I guess you don't necessarily want what the "pros" use!

But whatever. The entire "police and military use X" argument is empty, hollow, and originated by feckless instructors who want to use the two years they spent fixing radios in Turkey to sell classes. It's perpetuated by everybody else that feels their 18-shot .357 Sig Blastomatic 9000 somehow means **** won't stick to them. Protip: bad stuff still happens, and people that deserve to live still die.

Is .380 enough? Sure. It's a gun, and bullets still come out the end. It still stops people, and kills people. .22 Mag is enough, and .22LR is enough, and 9mm is enough, and .38 and .44 and .45 are all enough. You can lug around more gun, and it might make a difference, or it might not.

If you do not believe a particular cartridge is enough, I encourage you to take the Two Shot Challenge. Next time at the range, bring one of those "not enough" guns, stand in front of the backstop (safety first!), and have a buddy put one in your gut.

If you feel like asking him to shoot you again, well, guess you're right. It wasn't enough. Here's a cookie.

Save your breath, I can already tell that he's one of those guys who is just going to regurgitate a line about how nobody wants to get shot, only to contradict that statement by saying that anyone under the influence of narcotics has absolutely no problem being shot at because apparently druggies are fearless.

Dunno if anyone else here has had the displeasure of being acquainted with folks who do drugs, but I for one have not only been acquainted with, but also unfortunately worked with and even had relatives who were on a variety of drugs ranging from prescription pain medication to crack-cocaine, and strangely none of them were fearless in the least, but much to the contrary either jumpy to say the least or otherwise completely paranoid/excessively fearful for their own personal safety. Neither seem like the sort to stand their ground if a firearm were to be produced, much less go asking for seconds after being shot.

Heck, my experience with most thugs in general is that they would rather avoid anybody who would put up even the slightest bit of resistance in favor of those who will readily give into their demands without hesitation for a quick, easy, hassle-free score. These guys aren't willing to get bruised, much less shot. So the 7ft/300lb+ meth head who took sustained small arms fire and kept on coming until completely incapacitated/killed makes headlines because it's such an extraordinary occurrence that it is worthy of making the news, not because it's a common, everyday occurrence as some folks seem to believe.

 

[Dutchboy901]

I know I said in my last post #91 that it would be my last. However, there's a line in Dirty Harry Callahan's post that's too funny.

Heck, if you've got a 7ft/300+ lb meth head coming at you, there's probably no need to even shoot him because at that size, you could probably out run him!

 

[oink]

thei

Save your breath, I can already tell that he's one of those guys who is just going to regurgitate a line about how nobody wants to get shot, only to contradict that statement by saying that anyone under the influence of narcotics has absolutely no problem being shot at because apparently druggies are fearless.

Dunno if anyone else here has had the displeasure of being acquainted with folks who do drugs, but I for one have not only been acquainted with, but also unfortunately worked with and even had relatives who were on a variety of drugs ranging from prescription pain medication to crack-cocaine, and strangely none of them were fearless in the least, but much to the contrary either jumpy to say the least or otherwise completely paranoid/excessively fearful for their own personal safety. Neither seem like the sort to stand their ground if a firearm were to be produced, much less go asking for seconds after being shot.

Heck, my experience with most thugs in general is that they would rather avoid anybody who would put up even the slightest bit of resistance in favor of those who will readily give into their demands without hesitation for a quick, easy, hassle-free score. These guys aren't willing to get bruised, much less shot. So the 7ft/300lb+ meth head who took sustained small arms fire and kept on coming until completely incapacitated/killed makes headlines because it's such an extraordinary occurrence that it is worthy of making the news, not because it's a common, everyday occurrence as some folks seem to believe.

I'm done with the caliber debate but that post just doesn't seem valid to me as a general statement. Largely it is true much or even most of the time but not with enough certainty to assure or imply to others that no real danger exists.

I have dealt with drug addled ne'er-do-wells many times. Frequently this is combined with some mental illness either caused by drug use, having led to the drug use or even unrelated to drug use. But the combo isn't good.

And there are some people that seem to me to just be evil or even demon possessed but they may also be considered insane/mentally ill. I don't know. But some do seem immune to pain and fear, although it could be that their fear is just displaced. Again, I don't know.

Fortunately in none of my encounters with such people were they armed with guns and mostly not armed at all. And in most cases I had the benefit of assistance when I personally went hands on. And I'll also add that electronic control devices aren't totally reliable in these cases, especially when implementation is restricted to current standards, although sometimes they work exceptionally well. And I am aware of some horrible crimes by these apparently soulless people.

I've wondered numerous times at the average citizen that bebops through life unaware of the crazed, evil and/or totally drug addled people that live among us, relying on the "thin blue line" that's usually a reactionary presence responding after the fact. Not realizing that their lack of contact with such evil (whether in fact or appearance) is just a matter of luck and odds. Fortunately the odds are that most will pass through this life without violent encounters with such people. However, news reports might lead you to believe the percentage of the "bad" people is increasing. Not to mention the nut job mass shooters and actual terrorists.

No reflection on veterans and I think they make the best cops but I know of some instances where combat vets were very unstable, probably clinically insane, on drugs (often unprescribed street type) and or alcohol and in possession of firearms. Had they been confronted by an armed citizen or police while in that condition they would likely have gone on offense and the surprised "victim" probably wouldn't have had a clue what shlt storm was about to hit. I've delivered more than one, that was ready for help, to the V.A. hospital. Those guys deserve our support and love especially those with serious potentially scary problems. I could start giving more personal examples here but I think not.

Train and carry with whatever you want. If competent with it, it's better than nothing, whatever it is. If incompetent, you're better off without.

 

[Echo40]

I am aware that there are individuals out there who for whatever reason can withstand an abnormal physical trauma before going down.
However, such individuals are an exception to the rule, and in most cases nothing short of a direct hit to a vital structure is going to stop a determined attacker. Any difference in power/size is between handgun cartridges most likely isn't going to make a difference because the theory of hydrostatic shock is based on a phenomenon observed based on rifle cartridges which launch projectiles traveling at velocities way above the average handgun cartridges, and minor size differences between handgun calibers is unlikely to make enough of a difference to count because any miss with a 9mm projectile would only result in a clipping hit with a .40 or .45.

Furthermore, I personally feel that there is a point in which preparation for a perceived occurrence begins to exceed the margins of practicality, and for me preparing for a chance encounter with a human being who is so extremely hostile that he cannot be dissuaded by being shot for any number of reasons has surpassed that margin. To me, carrying a firearm chambered in a more powerful cartridge in preparation of such a person is like doing the exact same thing on the off chance that a Gorilla escapes from the zoo and attacks you.
If it makes you feel more comfortable to carry something more powerful than .380 ACP, then that's your prerogative, but don't go trying to convince others that they're being foolish because in an extremely specific and highly unlikely scenario .380 ACP might not be sufficient.

Lastly, I would presume that when/if faced with a supernatural entity driven by its own purely evil nature to do harm who cannot feel pain or be stopped by sustained fire from a .380 pistol is most likely equally resistant to other handgun cartridges. I'm not making fun of you here either, merely pointing out a flaw in the reasoning that a supernatural entity who is all but impervious to physical damage from a .380 pistol would succumb more readily to a more powerful cartridge. In which case, (and again, I'm being completely straight with you here) you would honestly be better off carrying an object of spiritual significance than placing your faith in a man-made firearm which was designed for use against humans or animals rather than demonic spirits. Even assuming that there is a set of rules unbeknownst to us mortals in which a demon is no longer capable of maintaining control over a host which has suffered fatal injuries, a shot to a vital structure with a .380 ought to be sufficient.

That all being said, I fully respect your opinions and feelings on carry, little as I may agree with them, and I am impressed by your willingness to openly discuss the possibility of an encounter with a supernatural foe, all I ask is that in return you grant me/everyone else here the same courtesy.
You have said enough and your opinion on the matter has been noted, now just let it be, grant others the freedom to decide for themselves, for better or worse, that which they will carry for self-defense.

 

[Protected One]

I know I said in my last post #91 that it would be my last. However, there's a line in Dirty Harry Callahan's post that's too funny.

Heck, if you've got a 7ft/300+ lb meth head coming at you, there's probably no need to even shoot him because at that size, you could probably out run him!

Yankee Marshall used that line in his "Is 380 Adequate for Self-Defense" video.

yankee marshall ,380 - Bing video

 

[oink]

I'm being completely straight with you here) you would honestly be better off carrying an object of spiritual significance than placing your faith in a man-made firearm which was designed for use against humans or animals rather than demonic spirits.

I think it's fair to say that you took that part of my comment a little far. I was just saying that the total lack of moral compass in some people (extreme sociopath if you prefer) is amazing and darn near beyond comprehension. Call it what you want. Throughout history I think it was generally considered evil. It doesn't really seem curable. But whatever. I'm confident you knew exactly what I meant. It was a minor part of my post. Your choice was to advance your argument by attempting to ridicule. Have at it, my skin is thick. I've been inoculated long ago.

Carry whatever you want or don't carry at all. As I said, I'm not arguing caliber or whatever. I just want to counter the argument that everything is pink daisies and unicorn farts. Or that anything else is inconceivably unlikely.

 

[wnderr]

Just keep pulling the trigger until the threat is neutralized. If that didn't work, that's what reloads are for! MHO. I sure doknow that I don't want 7 or 13 .380s in me.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I'd like to see the average shooter do that with a mouse gun. How many of those are going to be hits and misses? Where do the misses go?

 

[Rustyt1953]

 

[keith44spl]

I like a handgun to be....well handy.

The 9mm Short is on the low end of my list.

So, I choose the largest practical caliber available, i.e. 44 or 45 caliber.

If I were expecting trouble, I'd carry a rifle.


.

 

[Dutchboy901]

Yankee Marshall used that line in his "Is 380 Adequate for Self-Defense" video.

yankee marshall ,380 - Bing video

That's where I got it from because it makes sense & it was funny!!!

 

[Echo40]

I think it's fair to say that you took that part of my comment a little far. I was just saying that the total lack of moral compass in some people (extreme sociopath if you prefer) is amazing and darn near beyond comprehension. Call it what you want. Throughout history I think it was generally considered evil. It doesn't really seem curable. But whatever. I'm confident you knew exactly what I meant. It was a minor part of my post. Your choice was to advance your argument by attempting to ridicule. Have at it, my skin is thick. I've been inoculated long ago.

Carry whatever you want or don't carry at all. As I said, I'm not arguing caliber or whatever. I just want to counter the argument that everything is pink daisies and unicorn farts. Or that anything else is inconceivably unlikely.

Believe it or not, I was being 100% serious, not attempting to ridicule you, merely responding to a statement which I had mistaken as literal. People have all sorts of spiritual beliefs and I honestly thought that your interpretation of those who don't fear death and will continue aggression past the point of being shot was that at least some percentage of them are literally possessed.

Seriously, it's the internet. Folks have made far less tangible statements in regards to firearms, and being a man of faith myself, the concept of literal demonic possession is one which I am familiar with, nor would I presume to hypocritically question.
People are most certainly capable of acts of cruelty so unthinkable that the word "evil" is indeed an apt description, and thus I would just as soon (if not sooner) accept that they are literally possessed by demons as I would any other attempt at rationalizing their monstrous tendencies.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[wnderr]

I'd like to see the average shooter do that with a mouse gun. How many of those are going to be hits and misses? Where do the misses go?

Considering all of those are going to be 10' or less, I am reasonably confident all of them will be in the perps body. I've shot people under considerable stress, and do know how to do it!

 

[oink]

Believe it or not, I was being 100% serious, not attempting to ridicule you, merely responding to a statement which I had mistaken as literal. People have all sorts of spiritual beliefs and I honestly thought that your interpretation of those who don't fear death and will continue aggression past the point of being shot was that at least some percentage of them are literally possessed.

Seriously, it's the internet. Folks have made far less tangible statements in regards to firearms, and being a man of faith myself, the concept of literal demonic possession is one which I am familiar with, nor would I presume to hypocritically question.
People are most certainly capable of acts of cruelty so unthinkable that the word "evil" is indeed an apt description, and thus I would just as soon (if not sooner) accept that they are literally possessed by demons as I would any other attempt at rationalizing their monstrous tendencies.

Sorry for the confusion.

You made a large issue in your response about a minor point used for illustration. On the other hand, I am a Bible believer and take it mostly literally, at least the parts I think were intended literally. Of course my interpretation is my interpretation and I suspect I'm wrong a place or two, not including the parts I just plain don't understand.

The Bible mentions demons and possession but aside from something from Ghost Busters, etc. I'll assume I'm mainly dealing with the physical world and react accordingly. Well, in some situations I might throw in a prayer or two, given the opportunity.

No problem on the confusion.

---------------------------------------------

Temporarily back to how much is enough. It occurs to me that there have been several terrorist incidents with local connections, starting with 911 and including the Orlando night club thing, although none of the incidents actually occurred locally.

I agree with those retired LEOs that plan to remain uninvolved other than in matters affecting their own friends and family,....but I agree only to a point.

I'll stick with a minimum (local walks excluded) of 9mm with reasonable capacity or .357. But the problem with a revolver is reloading speed unless you're carrying a couple of speedloaders on your belt. But who does that for EDC? Too bad because I really do prefer revolvers personally, but you can't stop progress I guess. And the revolver vs semi-auto reliability debate went out the window with Glock, square and ugly though they are.

By the way, I've owned and carried 380s for years starting with the PPKS (Manurhin) AMT Back-UP (ver. 1&2) Kel-tec P3AT (P32 first) Ruger and Smith. They're great for back up or when carrying something else simply isn't practical. I just guess my "practical" differs from yours and others. I simply don't find any difficulty at all carrying one of the newer breed of thin 9s and a couple of extra mags (sans grip extension). But I'll often carry more gun.

But I said I was done with the caliber/gun debate. Apparently I lied so just ignore the above. Go 380!

 

[Kanewpadle]

Considering all of those are going to be 10' or less, I am reasonably confident all of them will be in the perps body. I've shot people under considerable stress, and do know how to do it!

You are not the average shooter.