Is the .380 enough?

[Jim NNN]

Right now I'm carrying both a 9mm and a .380. I see the .380 as my backup, but no way would I carry it even as a backup if I didn't feel it could defend.

I have a .32 acp and some .32 S&WL revolvers, but I probably wouldn't use them as a backup when I have better choices. And of course, the few .25 acp's I own, even more so. But I wouldn't hesitate to carry them if they were all I had. Even the .25's.

My point is, most of us who carry handguns for protection are arming ourselves against largely unknown threats, and therefore, we have to deal with likelihoods and probabilities. In the Montana wilderness, it's simpler because you have a clearer idea of what your likely threat is...so you carry a .41 Blackhawk or larger. In a place like Kansas City, though, a .41 BH just isn't going to make sense, just like a .380 won't make sense in rural Montana. Of course, if you have Vegas shooter scenario, neither of those guns will work, so what can I say?

I think the commonly stated issue with .380's is that some HP bullets won't go deep enough or won't expand if they encounter relatively tough material, while fmj's won't expand and might even over-penetrate if an attacker is wearing light clothing. I have lehigh Xtreme rounds in my LCP because they don't have to expand to do damage.

 

[Horn]

Well, I've read all of these. What's missing?__and this will fit the average__
__ What's missing? And this can't be taught! "The will to meet and destroy your enemy in hand to hand combat" The spirit of the bayonet from an old Marine Corps Manual. Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!
I had the will____ I still have it. Now, think, what would you really do? It's not kids playing guns out there.
If__"I'm not sure, actually." You don't.
Who was it that said, "Just because you own a violin doesn't make you a musician" ?
Hope I haven't destroyed anyone's evening.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

 

[Runs With Gun]

Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!

Well that's less than reassuring. I hope you told them so.

I used to carry a .380 and defended the caliber at great length but not because I liked the round, but because I liked the weapon itself. That was not a good reason and I no longer have that weapon nor do I defend the round for self defense.

My minimum defensive caliber now is .38 Special.

 

[max503]

A biographical article in the NRA magazine stated that Sargent York carried a 32 acp after leaving the service.

"Andrew tells of how his father was able to shoot doves on the wing using a Winchester Model 74 .22 autoloading rifle—another of his favorite guns. During my visit with the York family, I also was able to view a Winchester Model 92 in .25-20 Win., as well as a .32 ACP CZ Model 24 semi-automatic pistol. The former was presumably used for larger game such as deer and hogs, while the latter, according to Andrew, was carried by York occasionally for self-protection. He has no idea where the CZ came from."

American Rifleman | Sgt. York: American Rifleman, American Hero

 

[oink]

My father, a decorated WWII vet, idolized Sgt York. When I was small we went out of our way to visit him while on family vacation. Only my father went up to the house while we waited in the car. He paid his respects to Grace but he didn't see Sgt. York. Yeah, it was that easy to go up to the house. I don't think too many visitors was an issue, at least at that time. I thought I remembered that he didn't see him as York had passed but after looking him up on Wikipedia it's more likely he was hospitalized at the time. Apparently Grace was very gracious and seemed to appreciate hearing from someone who adored and idolized her husband. I didn't realize at the time what a big deal York was. He sure was a big deal to my Dad.

Unfortunately when I think of Sgt. York I don't visualize him but I see Gary Cooper in my mind.

Whatever gun he carried I'm sure shot placement wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[oldiegoldie]

My father, a decorated WWII vet, idolized Sgt York. When I was small we went out of our way to visit him while on family vacation. Only my father went up to the house while we waited in the car. He paid his respects to Grace but he didn't see Sgt. York. Yeah, it was that easy to go up to the house. I don't think too many visitors was an issue, at least at that time. I thought I remembered that he didn't see him as York had passed but after looking him up on Wikipedia it's more likely he was hospitalized at the time. Apparently Grace was very gracious and seemed to appreciate hearing from someone who adored and idolized her husband. I didn't realize at the time what a big deal York was. He sure was a big deal to my Dad.

Unfortunately when I think of Sgt. York I don't visualize him but I see Gary Cooper in my mind.

Whatever gun he carried I'm sure shot placement wouldn't have been an issue.

thanks for sharing a great story. all of my acquaintances and family members of the greatest generation are gone now. life is a little less bright.

 

[Echo40]

Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!

Well that's less than reassuring. I hope you told them so.

I used to carry a .380 and defended the caliber at great length but not because I liked the round, but because I liked the weapon itself. That was not a good reason and I no longer have that weapon nor do I defend the round for self defense.

My minimum defensive caliber now is .38 Special.

I take it you're referring to .38 Special +P, otherwise I'm afraid I have some bad news... .38 Special Standard Pressure and .380 ACP are roughly equal in terms of performance in modern self-defense loads, both deliver ~200ft-lbs of energy and penetrate to about the same depth, the only difference is that .38 Special bullets tend to be a bit heavier/slower than .380 ACP.

So yeah, if you think .380 ACP is insufficient for self-defense and are carrying Standard Pressure .38 Special, then you should start carrying +Ps immediately because what you're carrying is no better than .380 ACP in reality.

 

[Doug M.]

I have carefully avoided this string because I was pretty sure it would be more of a urinating contest than anything else. The first thing to remember is that pistol rounds suck. It is to be predicted that more often than not, if someone has to be shot to stop them, the victim will have to shoot the offender a bunch. It's a physiological reality. Take a look at the book by Urey Patrick and John Hall that I have cited multiple times, particularly Chapter 4. Look into the writings of Doc Roberts, intellectual heir of Dr. Fackler. There is a new book by Agent Morales about his experiences in the shootout near Miami in 1986 that has some really good points, too. I need to get a copy -only read a review with excerpts. This stuff is not news.

The second thing to remember is that a pistol is what one carries if they have no particular reason to expect to encounter a problem to which a firearm is an appropriate answer. If one has such reason - the first choice is to do something else, somewhere else. If that can't be arranged, like one is a cop - anyone who does not take a long gun (a rifle, or a shotgun with slugs) is not very smart and not paying enough attention to their own well-being.

What one chooses for a platform has to take into account a lot of things. How important it is to not be perceived/detected as being armed; physical capability to handle a certain configuration of firearm, from hand size to hand/arm strength, and others. Same with caliber. If one has arthritis, it may be necessary to use a platform/caliber that is not as potentially satisfactory as a standard service round. Remember that objective testing has shown very little actual difference in performance for the typical service rounds (9mm/.40/.357Sig/45ACP, the rounds for which we have the most test data) with modern ammo. The same is likely true for controllable big bore revolvers (41/44/45).

If the best one can do because of factors relevant to them (I saw a 70 YO small none too spritely woman at a class who did darned well with a 9mm M&P, but she is an outlier and will never perform like a 25 YO SOCOM E6) is a.22 or .380 - then that's the best they can do. Sub-optimal for sure, but WAY better than strong language and prayers, and certainly better than taking it like a prisoner. My wife is kinda small, and has among other issues bad back. I doubt she will ever do well with anything bigger than a .380. Oh well.

 

[oink]

Well said. I personally feel the 380 is a little less than optimal, but that's assuming other options are reasonably feasible and you can shoot it competently. If not, carry what works for you. I think that's sorta what you said.

 

[Capn]

There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.

Totally agree!

I honestly don't think there is a big difference between .22 and .45, including everything in between, at least as far as the cartridge's termial ballistics is concerned. The big difference is in the platform. Can you hit what you aim at? That may be the only thing that really matters.

.380 is plenty if you can put the lotion in the basket.

 

[Donn]

With the pocket 9s that are available, I don't see a reason to carry a 380 unless you're recoil sensitive.

Cost of ammo enters into it as well, 9's cheaper. 380 still costs an arm and a leg, at least around here.

 

[ladder13]

Yes, it's enough, just as those maligned "plastic" guns are enough. Anyone volunteering to be shot with a 380 or "plastic" gun?...............................

I rest my case.

 

[daddy bear]

I have a mechanically perfect 1908 Colt Pocket model. I really wish daughter didn't like it as well as I do. Perhaps she would allow me to have it back.

Modern ammo makes them better than the 1930s versions. Nothing is flatter or easier to conceal. You would think she would trade for a Model 60, but no. Her sister is perfectly happy with a 60. I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack

 

[delcrossv]

I'm solidly in the. 380 is sufficient for most purposes camp. My Sig232 and Baretta 84 Cheetah are easy to conceal, sufficiently accurate and with modern hollow points reduce the worry of overpenetration.
In talking with my LEO friends, most perps really aren't interested in getting shot- particularly more than once. 7+1 or 13+1 .380 will ruin anyone's day. A miss with a .44 is still a miss.

 

[Flyingfool]

I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack

Or S&W Shield 380EZ. It has great reviews

 

[Triggernosis]

I'm solidly in the. 380 is sufficient for most purposes camp. My Sig232 and Baretta 84 Cheetah are easy to conceal, sufficiently accurate and with modern hollow points reduce the worry of overpenetration.
In talking with my LEO friends, most perps really aren't interested in getting shot- particularly more than once. 7+1 or 13+1 .380 will ruin anyone's day. A miss with a .44 is still a miss.

How does the Beretta 84 shoot compared to your Sig P232?
Also, does the 84 have a removable front sight?

 

[TomkinsSP]

...Can you hit what you aim at? That may be the only thing that really matters...
[/QUOTE]

That and:

Does it ALWAYS go bang.
It it ALWAYS on your person.

 

[delcrossv]

How does the Beretta 84 shoot compared to your Sig P232?
Also, does the 84 have a removable front sight?

I like the 232 better. I think it has better ergonomics. The Cheetah has a long trigger pull compared to the 232 which feels a little awkward.
My 84 has a non removable front sight.

 

[delcrossv]

I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack

Although I think she's a philistine, my daughter loves hers.

 

[Buford57]

I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's.

Never one time, huh? Guess I was mistaken about those Colt Gov't .380s the Wyoming Department of Criminal Investigation issued in the 80s. They must have been .45 Commanders that were left in the dryer too long. Thanks for clearing that up for me.