Is the SW99 considered a Sigma?
- Thread starter S&W59
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Heck no. The SW99 is / was a version of Walther's P99 pistol.
Has nothing in common with the S&W designed Sigma series.
Has nothing in common with the S&W designed Sigma series.
ColbyBruce
Member
No it was a collaboration with Walther.
SW99
The SW99 series was a high quality pistol and licensed copy of Walther's P99. It was the second series of polymer S&W pistols manufactured by S&W of three. The first was the Sigma, the third the M&P. (Some consider the SD series a modified Sigma.) The SW99 was made in 9X19, .40S&W, and .45acp, in full size frame and 9 and 40 in compact frame. You will be well armed with a SW99 in any caliber.
On a related point, I really think the SW99 series should have its own section on this forum similar to the SD/Sigma and M&P sections... It is a fine weapon in its own right and I believe that it should be recognized.
The SW99 series was a high quality pistol and licensed copy of Walther's P99. It was the second series of polymer S&W pistols manufactured by S&W of three. The first was the Sigma, the third the M&P. (Some consider the SD series a modified Sigma.) The SW99 was made in 9X19, .40S&W, and .45acp, in full size frame and 9 and 40 in compact frame. You will be well armed with a SW99 in any caliber.
On a related point, I really think the SW99 series should have its own section on this forum similar to the SD/Sigma and M&P sections... It is a fine weapon in its own right and I believe that it should be recognized.
I concur. I snagged a cherry SW99 in 45ACP for 380-bucks with 2 mags and the serial numbered box. It was the stop-gap pistol for S&W until they could formulate their own design. The Sigma was a Glock clone, as the court ruled when Glock sued. As such, I believe these series pistols kept S&W alive until the M&P series was finalized. I refer to this period as 'the dark years' for S&W as they were caught a bit flat-footed by the polymer revolution FN and Glock ushered in the 1990's. Its a nice pistol, I ordered a trigger return spring and recoil spring assembly as spares.
Echo40
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Nope, it's a variant of the Walther P99 produced in a joint venture between Smith & Wesson and Walther during a time when they had a business partnership going.
It's actually a higher quality pistol than the Sigma Series, (not to say that the Sigma Series as a whole was bad) as you would expect from a firearm made in collaboration between two great firearms manufacturers.
The M&P Series was actually made by combining certain aspects of the Sigma and SW99.
OBJECTION!
The lawsuit was settled out of court. Also, the Sigma Series remained in production long afterwards and has been very successful for S&W. The current SD Series is just a rebranded Sigma Gen 4 which began development under thd name Sigma Delta.
It's actually a higher quality pistol than the Sigma Series, (not to say that the Sigma Series as a whole was bad) as you would expect from a firearm made in collaboration between two great firearms manufacturers.
The M&P Series was actually made by combining certain aspects of the Sigma and SW99.
S&W59 said:
OBJECTION!
The lawsuit was settled out of court. Also, the Sigma Series remained in production long afterwards and has been very successful for S&W. The current SD Series is just a rebranded Sigma Gen 4 which began development under thd name Sigma Delta.
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LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Just a note from a retired holster maker here. The S&W 99 was a collaborative effort with Walther, based on the P99, but the pistols are not identical and holster fitting is not the same.
REBUTTAL:
Smith and Wesson acknowledged they copied the Glock design while it was under international patent. Instead of forcing S&W to cease production, instead a five-dollar per frame produced royalty was exacted and agreed to in the settlement. The SD and consequent M&P designs were sufficiently divergent to avoid this royalty in addition to the patent lapsing.
Echo40
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True, but the S&W Sigma SW#VE remained in production until about 2012 when it was replaced by the SD#VE, many years after the settlement. Until then, the Sigma was sold alongside the SD and M&P as their budget-priced model, but sales on the then mid-range SD weren't very good because as prices on the M&P settled below MSRP, the price difference between the SD and M&P was practically negligible at around $50, yet the M&P was obviously the better gun, so S&W dropped both the SW#VE and SD pistols then combined elements from both to form the SD#VE.
However, it has been suggested (and with some evidence to back it up) that by the time that the SW#VE was released in 1999, Smith & Wesson had already preemptively made all the necessary changes to address the patent infringement, and that the settlement was actually done for the sake of getting Glock to drop the ultimatum they had going with gun dealers at the time, in which Glock told gun dealers that if they carried the Sigma, then Glock would no longer do business with them. Smith & Wesson merely paid royalties on the older Gen 1 SW#F as a condition of the settlement which was ultimately mutually beneficial.
However, it has been suggested (and with some evidence to back it up) that by the time that the SW#VE was released in 1999, Smith & Wesson had already preemptively made all the necessary changes to address the patent infringement, and that the settlement was actually done for the sake of getting Glock to drop the ultimatum they had going with gun dealers at the time, in which Glock told gun dealers that if they carried the Sigma, then Glock would no longer do business with them. Smith & Wesson merely paid royalties on the older Gen 1 SW#F as a condition of the settlement which was ultimately mutually beneficial.
Fastbolt
Member
I think "Harry" covered the bases fairly well.
I went through the SW99/P99 armorer class (taught by S&W) 3 times. I carried an issued one for a few years, and I own 2 of them. I've put some tens of thousands of rounds through various examples of them and helped maintain more than 50 agency-owned examples, and a number of other folk's personally-owned 99's.
S&W machined and through-hardened their own slides and barrels for the SW99/99NJ/990L's. They had them sent out for Melonite QP surface hardening (versus the Tenifer QPQ used by Walther, since S&W used stainless steel for their slides and barrels). Everything else came from Walther.
S&W did request some minor design changes to the frame, a couple of which I was told Walther later adopted in their own guns. Non-hooked frame tang above the web of the hand, different standardized accessory rail, exposed toe of magazine base to remove a stuck mag ... to name a couple off the top of my head.
We were told that it was S&W engineers, using their high speed imaging, that eventually identified the cause of the erratic premature slide-lock (rounds remaining in mag) that had been reported with early P99 .40's and SW99 .40's. It involved the magazine shape at the mag catch cutout, and after S&W gave the info to Walther, Walther and Mec-Gar revised the magazine bodies and followers.
S&W also changed a couple of the springs used in the SW99/990L's,like using an optional extractor spring (and reversing its installed orientation), and the slide stop lever spring (hooked end instead of closed loop end).
I saw some ongoing barrel design revisions in the SW99's, including the chamber mouth shape and rollover point, as well as the clearance cuts on the bottom of the barrel to better clear the top of the recoil spring assembly's coils.
Good guns. I've seen them withstand extended use and abuse.
Gotta run. Just some quick thoughts.
I went through the SW99/P99 armorer class (taught by S&W) 3 times. I carried an issued one for a few years, and I own 2 of them. I've put some tens of thousands of rounds through various examples of them and helped maintain more than 50 agency-owned examples, and a number of other folk's personally-owned 99's.
S&W machined and through-hardened their own slides and barrels for the SW99/99NJ/990L's. They had them sent out for Melonite QP surface hardening (versus the Tenifer QPQ used by Walther, since S&W used stainless steel for their slides and barrels). Everything else came from Walther.
S&W did request some minor design changes to the frame, a couple of which I was told Walther later adopted in their own guns. Non-hooked frame tang above the web of the hand, different standardized accessory rail, exposed toe of magazine base to remove a stuck mag ... to name a couple off the top of my head.
We were told that it was S&W engineers, using their high speed imaging, that eventually identified the cause of the erratic premature slide-lock (rounds remaining in mag) that had been reported with early P99 .40's and SW99 .40's. It involved the magazine shape at the mag catch cutout, and after S&W gave the info to Walther, Walther and Mec-Gar revised the magazine bodies and followers.
S&W also changed a couple of the springs used in the SW99/990L's,like using an optional extractor spring (and reversing its installed orientation), and the slide stop lever spring (hooked end instead of closed loop end).
I saw some ongoing barrel design revisions in the SW99's, including the chamber mouth shape and rollover point, as well as the clearance cuts on the bottom of the barrel to better clear the top of the recoil spring assembly's coils.
Good guns. I've seen them withstand extended use and abuse.
Gotta run. Just some quick thoughts.
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