Is this a Victory model?

[Summersteel]

Just bought this one today. Couldn't resist since price seemed very reasonable. Condition is a bit rough, but thought it could make a good truck gun. A bit confused by the SV serial number…..was this gun reworked by S&W for the added safety feature for the hammer? Interesting the cylinder is stamped with a "P" instead of an "S". Unsure if these are original stocks that would have shipped with this gun. Would love to get more insight about this one from the experts, and when you think it shipped. Thanks.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Yes, that's a WWII Victory with the improved safety feature. Should be a 38 Special. The stocks are from an earlier model M&P dating from the 1920's.

John

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Looks like a late WWII Victory revolver that received the updated hammer block safety. The stocks are from the 1920 decade. It likely shipped in 1945.

 

[JP@AK]

Yes, it is a late Victory Model, and it probably left the factory in February 1945.

On February 23, 1945, S&W shipped 1200 units to the Oakland Navy Yard in California. SV779251 was one of them. I strongly suspect yours was also in that shipment. Only a letter can tell you for sure, but there is a very good chance of it.

was this gun reworked by S&W for the added safety feature for the hammer?

No, it was not "reworked." At that serial number, the Victory Models were built that way originally - it started in December 1944, with shipments beginning in January 1945.

The P on the cylinder is simply a proof mark, common on the military shipped revolvers.

As others have noted, the stocks are from the 1920s and are not original to that revolver.

 

[Summersteel]

Thank you all for the information!
What would have been the stocks that would have shipped on this gun? Also, were the guns in the Feb 1945 shipment the only SV serial guns? If not, how many did S&W make? I've just not seen this serial number sequence before.

 

[JP@AK]

were the guns in the Feb 1945 shipment the only SV serial guns?

how many did S&W make?

The SV numbers started in December 1944, as mentioned above. It continued after the war up to about the SV813000 range. After SV811119, S&W introduced the simple S prefix (S811120), but there were quite a few SV serialized revolvers produced up to the 813000 range, when the V disappears permanently and from that point on, they just had the S prefix until the numbers ran out at S999999 and the C prefix began. That happened in March 1948.

No one knows exactly how many units carried the SV prefix, but the lowest number I've found is SV732261 (a Navy gun that shipped on July 29, 1945). The highest is SV813132, but there are S prefix guns with lower serial numbers than that. Hence, we can't just subtract 732261 from 813132 to get the total number.

What we do know is that SV769844 was in a postwar civilian shipment on March 22, 1946, even though higher numbers were shipped to the Navy before the war ended. After SV802722 on August 13, 1945, there were no more military shipments. All of them above that number were civilian shipments after the war.

We can therefore conclude that a large number of SV prefix guns were in postwar shipments to distributors, gun shops and police departments after WWII ended.

What would have been the stocks that would have shipped on this gun?

The standard military stocks during WWII. They had no checking and no medallion. I've attached a photo.

 

[DWalt]

I have not seen any information relating to how many of the SV series revolvers were shipped to the U.S. military vs. how many were sold on the civilian market in the postwar period. There were some earlier Navy Victories (V series) that were shipped back to S&W to be converted to use the improved hammer drop safety. Probably all of those converted Navy revolvers were stamped somewhere with an "S" to identify them.

 

[JP@AK]

There were some earlier Navy Victories (V series) that were sent to S&W to be converted to use the improved hammer drop safety. Probably all of those converted revolvers were stamped somewhere with an "S" to identify them.

I have a handful of them in my database. Some have five digits after the V, some have six. All are fairly early Navy units. They have the S added before the V on the butt and the small S on the side plate.

 

[Summersteel]

Here are some more pictures of the gun. There is very little finish left on this gun, and I think it may have been refinished at some point in its past since the side pin is flush with the frame.
I didn't notice the small "s" and "p" stampings on the sides of the gun. Interesting that the "p" is also stamped on the face of the cylinder with the serial number. Anyone know what these stamping might mean? No other markings on the gun.

 

[DARE]

I think the "p" is a proof mark. The "s" might indicate it has the new safety. The experts will straighten it out if I am wrong.

 

[JP@AK]

I didn't notice the small "s" and "p" stampings on the sides of the gun.

Anyone know what these stamping might mean?

The S on the side plate indicates that the side plate was machined for the sliding hammer block safety. The vast majority of the SV units have that stamp. It helped identify a side plate that was suitable for use on a gun with the new safety mechanism, since there would still be some in the bin that could not accommodate the new mechanism. My strong suspicion is that the real purpose was to speed up assembly - the assembler only had to glance at the outside of the plate to know it would work in the unit he was assembling. Sure, he could look at the inside, but with the S present, either side would immediately tell him that he hadn't grabbed the wrong piece.

Eventually, all the old side plates had been used or removed from the bin, so the S mark disappeared from the postwar guns after a relatively short time. The time roughly corresponds to the point at which only S prefix frames were being used (no more SV units).

 

[gunbarrel]

Verify that the hand-written serial number on the right grip doesn't match the original serial number of V779565 (99.9% sure it doesn't); then, remove them and sell them here. With the money you make, you can buy a correct set of grips and a lanyard ring for it. Clean up the gun and depending on what you paid for it, you could get 1-1/2 - 2 times what you paid for it. Or, keep it as a piece of US WWII history, instead of using it as a truck gun. The old soldier deserves it, and you would be proud to own it. Just my 2¢ worth...

 

[Summersteel]

I think the "p" is a proof mark. The "s" might indicate it has the new safety. The experts will straighten it out if I am wrong.

If this gun is a civilian model made with leftover Victory parts, why would it get proof marks? There is also no US Property stamp on this gun. I'm still stumped about the "p" stamping on the side and face of the cylinder.
I'm also not sure about my earlier thoughts on the refinish. The side pin on all the other Victory models I've looked at is also flush with the side on those guns too. I guess I'm too used to looking at this place on guns, like I do for the older N frames I like, to try to determine if the gun has been refinished.
Yeah, I got some proper new grips for it that fit much better. I like this one too much, so it ain't going in the truck.

 

[ordnanceguy]

If this gun is a civilian model made with leftover Victory parts, why would it get proof marks? There is also no US Property stamp on this gun. I'm still stumped about the "p" stamping on the side and face of the cylinder.
I'm also not sure about my earlier thoughts on the refinish. ...

Your Victory is almost certainly a military shipment made during WW2. In all probability it was not a DSC shipped gun or a post-war civilian gun. P-proof marks would be standard on military shipped Victory revolvers in this serial range.

The absence of left top strap markings means that the gun either (a) never had them applied, something that only occasionally occurred or (b) the top strap marking was removed, something that happened with some frequency after the war presumably because the then owner was concerned that it might be still be considered government property.

For me assessing finishes via pictures on the internet is fraught with difficulty. In this case, however, it appears that what remains on the gun is the original Black Magic finish. I think your revolver has had a hard service life over the past 80 years but I do not think it has been refinished.

I hope that information is helpful to you.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[Summersteel]

Yes, Charlie, very helpful! Thank you for the reply.

 

[JP@AK]

I agree with Charlie.

In Post #4 above, I wrote:

On February 23, 1945, S&W shipped 1200 units to the Oakland Navy Yard in California. SV779251 was one of them. I strongly suspect yours was also in that shipment. Only a letter can tell you for sure, but there is a very good chance of it.