Issues with 629-6 and H-110

[Jitterbug]

Hey guys, I’m loading for a new 4” 629-6.

250 gr. Keith Leadhead .430”
New Starline
CCI-300
1.718” COL
¾” turn on RCBS crimp die.

20.5 grains of 2400 gives me 1207 fps, cases extract easily.

250 g. Keith Leadhead .430”
New Starline
CCI-350’s (19 years old, stored in temperature controlled, dry basement)
1.718” COL
¾” turn on RCBS crimp die.

21.5 grains of H-110 gave me 1223 fps, cases more difficult to extract.
22.0 grains of H-110 gave me 1237 fps, cases progressively more difficult to extract.

The cases required considerable thumb pressure and most had to be individually pulled from the cylinder they would not drop free. The 2400 load did drop free, with much easier thumb pressure.

Primers looked identical for all three loads.

I had some 22.5 grain H-110 loads but wasn’t comfortable in shooting them with the results I was obtaining, I was thinking of running this load up to 23 or 24 grains.

I’ve seen Load data for a 250 grain Lyman 429421 running from 23 to 24.5 grains as a max load. I’ve seen minimum start data as low as 21.0 grains for a 250 grain Speer K bullet. (Speer #14)

I haven’t used H-110 for over 19 years and then my work with it was limited. I’m well aware of the Hogdon warning not to run less then 3% below max due to the possibility of a squib.

I started with 21.5 grains because it was recommended to me by an experienced handloader familiar with a 4” 629, Leadhead Keiths and H-110 as a potential start load.

In this case I’m not exactly sure what max would be, but assume it’s in the 24.0-24.5 grain range.


My concern is the more difficult case extraction verses the 2400 load, and how it got progressively worse going from 21.5 to 22.0 grains.

I haven’t measure but I’ve read and assume my throats are tight, I cannot push a .429 bullet though the cylinder.

Any suggestions?

 

[Snapping Twig]

Can't say really, I've been loading Lyman 429244 265g GCSWC over 22g H110/W296 forever and it is not considered a maximum. I selected it to be close, but not max and I am pleased with it.

Slug your chamber and barrel to get proper size and an idea of where to start with diagnosis.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The starting and max loads for a 240gr jacketed bullet on the Hodgdon site are 23.0gr and 24.0gr. I highly doubt the max load for a 250gr lead bullet is 24.0gr to 24.5gr like you guessed.

My Lyman 4th Edition Cast load manual does however lists a max charge of 23.0 H110 under a 250gr lead SWC bullet. I would appraoch that number very carefully.

If you think a load is too hot you are probably right. Even if your load is slightly lower than the max but your accuracy is good I would stick with that load and not worry about a few fps more in velocity.

 

[buck460XVR]

In this case I’m not exactly sure what max would be, but assume it’s in the 24.0-24.5 grain range.

All information I have shows the max under a 250gr Kieth style is 23 gr in .44mag. My info also shows 21 gr as min.

Hodgdon themselves do not show H110/W296 under any lead bullets in .44mag other than Gas Checked. I personally do not like H110/W296 with lead altho I prefer it with jacketed.

Hard extraction is generally a sign of high pressure, so I tend to back off my loads whenever I experience it. If your are getting similar velocities with 2400 with easy extraction, IMHO, I'd stick with it. A few extra FPS ain't worth it. IMR4227 works well with lead in the .44 also.

 

[Jitterbug]

The Speer #14 shows 23.0 grains with a 250 grain K bullet.

I found the 24, 24.5 and even 25.0 grain loads with a 255 grain Lyman 429244 on Loaddata.com. These are loads from their "members" as well as from Handloader Magazine. And of course I went to the Hogdon website first.

My friend who's been reloading the .44 for over 40 years suggested this bullet and 24 grains of H-110, said it works fine from his newer 629 so after researching it I thought I'd see if I could work mine up to there.

The gun was pretty dirty from shooting well over 100 rounds of cast loads of all variety through it.

I just gave it a real good scrubbing and wiped down the 22.0 gr. H-110 cases as well and they will now eject cleanly.

My friend is thinking it might have something do to with the tight throats on the new 629's.

Yep, I'm happy with the 20.5 grains of 2400 load, 1207 fps is fine and so far accuracy is good.

I was under the impression that H-110 would deliver the same if not more velocity with less pressure, so thought I'd ask, especially since I haven't used H-110 for long time and wasn't sure if the factory warning was due to squibs only or overpressure and detonation type issues or both.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Here is some useful information that you may have missed from the loaddata.com data:

Warning! Notes: All Smith & Wesson Models 29, 629 and 329PD. A Smith & Wesson (pre-29) .44 Magnum revolver with a 6 1/2-inch barrel used to test loads. Winchester and Starline cases used throughout. These loads DO NOT exceed SAAMI recommended pressure limits of 36,000 psi, but they should be used sparingly in guns produced before 1988 and avoid using jacketed bullet loads in the early four-and five-screw guns. (Handloader Issue #241 - July, 2006)

Most of the loads with this combination of components, on Load Data are maxed out at 22-23gr of H-110. Most, like 95% of them stop at 21gr.

I would work up carefully. You are going to have less pressure with H110 over 2400. I'm gonna contribute it to dirty chambers. Just guessing though. Shoot the H110 loads first or use a bore snake between loads being tested.

I use a 240gr XTP, 24.5gr of H110/W296/WC820 and get 1400+fps from my 5" M629 Classic and right at 1800fps from the same load from any one of my carbines, Marlin 1894, Ruger M77/44 and a Thompson Center Encore with a 22" Pro Hunter SS barrel.

Hope this helps. I have some other loads that are pretty stout with some home cast lead bullets too.

Here is what they look like:

100 yard group:

50 yard results:

Hope this helps!

 

[NE450No2]

Everybody thinks that H110 can be used in larger charges than 2400. I am talking Old 2400.

I used 22.5gr of 2400 and 24gr of H110 with the same 240gr bullets, cast and jacketed for years.

However after a while I went back to 2400 for my everyday full power loads in the 44 Mag.

I also find that I liked 2400 better than H110 in a 4" S&W.

And for the last many years I have carried the 4" most often.

Also over the years I have realized a few things...

I first started using 22.5 gr of 2400 with any jacketed 240 gr bullet or my 240 gr cast Keith bullets.

After a few years I dropped to 22 gr of 2400...

Now I usually load 21 gr of 2400 with my cast bullets.
This is all with the old 2400. They are easier on the gun...

I have not noticed any difference in penetration or killing power.

I "think" that the 22.5 gr of 2400 were more accurate, but that may be because back then, my eyes were better...

 

[J. W.]

Smith Crazy, that is a massive hollow point and a massive wound it left!

 

[BruceM]

I cannot tell you how many .44 magnum rounds I've fire thru various Smith's using Lyman 429421 and either 24.0 grains of H110 or 24.0 grains of W296 but they number well into the thousands easily. I have never had an extraction issue although the primers start to flatten, especially when the cases are "well used". This goes back to the days before H110 was reformulated and W296 was made by Olin and they actually were different propellants.

If a .429" diameter bullet will not fit thru your cylinder throats, why are you using .430 diameter bullets?

Suggestions?

1. Determine the actual diameter of your cylinder throats & bore. If the cylinder throats are actually less than .429", have them opened up to no more than .001" above bore diameter by a pistol smith.

2. Have all cylinder charge holes polished smooth. The idea is to get them smooth and not to enlarge them or make them out of round.

3. Try using bullets that are .429" in diameter.

H110/W296 need at least a 90% load density with both tight bullet pull and heavy crimp to burn correctly. Lowering the charge weight below recommended minimums will result in a squib. I have never heard of a lab being able to duplicate a low charge detonating in a case and would be interested in reading any written documentation of such an event under lab conditions. Back in the days of Flintstone wheels on cars, a common legend was that low charges of Bullseye could detonate, especially in large cases such as .44 magnum or .45 Colt. This was an especially well traveled rumor with .38 Special Bullseye target shooters. This could never be duplicated under lab conditions although H.P. White Ballistic Labs tried.



Bruce

 

[Skip Sackett]

Smith Crazy, that is a massive hollow point and a massive wound it left!

And that dear friend is the entrance wound! haha

Can't wait to harvest something more substantial with them!

 

[Jitterbug]

Bruce and all

I fired 20.5 grains of 2400 @ 1207 fps with the same bullet right after the 22.0 grains H-110 with the same bullet at 1237 fps. The 2400 load extracted easily, so I’m not sure if it was a dirty gun issue.

I then ran a cylinder of 280 gr. BTB WFNGC sized at .429 over 17.0 grains of AA9 which gives me 1145 fps and again no extraction issues.

Good question as to why I'm running the .430" bullet through a smaller throat.

It’s a new gun, I’m revisiting loading the .44 after a 20 year hiatus and I'm on a learning curve here is the best answer, that and the bullet was recommended by a friend who's been using it for quite some time in various 29's, 629's and numerous Ruger's. All of his Smith and Wesson revolvers are older excepting a new 4" 629-8 that he just picked up.

Yep, -8. Mine is a -6 which was made in May, 2011 and has the new style rubber grip.

.430" is the smallest diameter option on Leadhead’s website, surprisingly it has delivered a decent group for me with the 2400. But only one group thus far, but 5 into .9" at 12.5 yards...not enough to really tell much but I thought a good start. The .430” Leadhead did the same with some mild 231 and Unique loads.

My best groups with my gun @ 12.5 yards are running .85-.9”. I’m starting at 12.5 yards due to a range issue with 12.5 yards the furthest distance offered for pistol and some old eyes, I’ll be taking it out to 25 yards as soon as I can and as I get more used to the .44 Mag.

I've been using 2400 both Alliant and some older Hercules, AA9, Unique, 231 and recently picked up the H-110.

FWIW, the older Hercules 2400 seems to be much hotter.

250 gr. BTB @ .429", 20.0 grains of H2400 gave me 1284 fps.
250 gr. BTB @ .429", 20.0 grains of A2400 gave me 1215 fps.

This 250 gr. BTB bullet really weighs 260 grains.

Bullets thus far are

240 grain Legend SWC, @ .429"
250 grain Beartooth Bullet WFNGC @ .429"
280 grain BTB, WFNGC @ .429"
250 grain Leadhead Keith @ .430"

I have some old jacketed bullets on the shelf from .4295-.430 but I haven’t tried any of those yet.

The friends new 4" 629 a 629-8 is at a Smith and Wesson warranty center right now and he just told me the gunsmith informed him the throats are .425", he called Smith and Wesson and a guy in the Performance Center told him the throat should be .429-.4295". Smith and Wesson offered to fix it.

But, Smith and Wesson won't open them up anymore then that so he's considering having a gunsmith do as you suggested. He’s also convinced he has a barrel issue.

He has “triangles” etched into the bore of his gun, in the grooves, just after the forcing cone and he’s convinced this is what’s giving him accuracy issues, Smith and Wesson told him they are using a new method of cutting barrels to reduce costs and that these triangles are normal. Mine has them too.

He fired the 250 grain .430" Leadhead Keith over 24.0 grains of H-110 and he said it extracted fine from his 629-8, like you he's fired thousands of that load through numerous .44's but he said the accuracy was terrible in his new 629-8 as it has been with all bullets he’s tried, .429 jacketed bullets as well as cast up to .430" using 2400 and H-110.

I know my 22.0 grains of H-110 was accurately measured, my equipment and loading technique is spot on, so I can rule that out, not to mention that I probably would have had a higher velocity if I had over charged.

The Gunsmith at the warranty center was to run some loads through it yesterday from a Ransom rest.

Me, I have an issue with the cylinder catching on two chambers on my new 629-6, I've had two local smiths look at it, one thought it was due to an out of round hole at the end of the ejector rod, the other thought the ratchets were too rough with high spots on them.

I haven't had a chance yet to have my throats measured, yesterday I tried again to push a .429" BTB through the throats and they won't quite go with a hard push on a pencil, they hang up with about 1/2 of the bullet sticking out of the cylinder on a freshly cleaned gun.

Bottom line, I don't know what's going on with this fresh pound of H-110 and I'm going to follow your suggestions.

I'll probably send mine back to Smith and Wesson to have them repair the cylinder catching issue, unless I can find a local smith to fix it at a reasonable cost, I'm not sure if I can find a Smith in Denver who I'd trust to ream and polish cylinders, I'll have to look into it, otherwise I'll send the cylinder off to someone.

Smith Crazy, I hear those woodchuck are tasty when done up right in a crock pot!

I appreciate all your help.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Jitter,
I was gonna skin it out and give it to the little woman to cook. She made it pretty clear that that wasn't gonna happen anytime soon. Instead of letting it get freezer burned by being in there so long, I elected to throw it away!

 

[amazingflapjack]

Just a thought

I suggest that you get an accurate measurement of your throats. I have a 629-6, but it's a pc, and the throats run small on them, don't know if that's the case on your gun-pin guages will tell the tale. Also-I would check the cylinder bores for carbon build up. Sometimes a patch holder with a piece of 220 wet and dry fabric sand paper in a drill and moved gently and carefully back and forth has worked for me. Go safely. Flapjack.

 

[BruceM]

I personally can't recommend DIY polishing of the charge holes. To remove stubborn carbon buildup, try KG-1 carbon remover. It will remove deposits which sneer at mere mortal solvents such as Hoppes. For copper, KG-12 is the hot ticket. I've heard that it will literally dissolve a copper penny and was developed for the US military for removing copper fouling in crew served field pieces.

Your friend's experience regarding pressure with H110 is similar to mine, going back to 1977 or 1978. This is a little off topic but in my 8 3/8" M629-1 with the S&W integral barrel mount scope arrangement and a Leupold M8 2x scope, I can fire 2.5" 50 meter groups using a Sierra 180 grain JHC on top of 29.5 grains of H110. This isn't earth shaking but is more than sufficient for what I use the gun for. I've gone up to 30.0 grains but case extraction starts to get a little sticky and accuracy starts to fade. With the 24.0 grain charge under Lyman #429421, it's common to get all holes touching in a 10 shot string at 25 meters with open stock sights. That's about 1.5" composite groups. Not real bad considering my mediocre shooting skills and tired old eyes from 30+ years of 1st sitting at a drafting table and then a computer screen.

Anyway, your experience is atypical and is probably gun related exacerbated by the oversized bullets. Get some accurate measurements on both your gun and the bullets and then proceed based on those facts.

Two other things to consider:

1. If you shoot a lot of cast bullets, have the forcing cone re-cut to 11 degrees as long as the 'smith is cutting steel. Not a very expensive modification but cast bullets seem to really like the more gradual restriction.

2. If you feel you must use bullets heavier than 250 grains, consider one of the guns built by that "R" Company or going to a larger caliber such as a .460 or .500. Smith's are just fine until the decision is made to use heavier than "standard" bullets. Then the clunkier, less refined but more massive "hawks" start to gain an edge.

I'll be interested to see how this resolves itself.



Bruce

 

[Jitterbug]

Thanks Bruce

Getting this gun straightened out so it will shoot cast accurately and without undue pressure, will probably become a winter time project.

The information you've provided jives with what I've been able to glean and learn from the wonder web.

I looked at and considered the 4" Redhawk's, like you say a bigger/heavier less refined gun, although I did like the DA trigger on the two .45 Colts that I tried, and SA wasn't bad at all.

I never was able to locate a .44 Mag in the 4" Redhawk, and considered the .45 Colt, but since I had a bunch of .44 Mag. components, dies and brass I chose this route.

I have the .429" 250/260 BTB WFNGC giving me decent accuracy and 1215 fps velocity with 20.0 grains of 2400 without any pressure signs so that will suffice for my wanderings in the central Rockies until mid November when the bears go down as well as the occasional few cylinders per shooting session just to stay familiar with it.

Heck winters here, we had a good snow night before last.

In the meantime I'm planning on picking up some .429" Colorado Cast 240's to play around with some milder loads, probably in the 900-1000 fps range. Both Unique and 231 have been good thus far with 231 seeming to have a slight edge on accuracy.