Issues with Lil' Gun?

[Nygma]

About a year ago I bought a pound of Lil' Gun with the intention of trying it out in a couple of Magnum revolvers. Since then I've heard several rumors of excessive forcing cone erosion with this powder.

This morning I came across this thread where Bob Baker of Freedom Arms weighs in on the issue:

The Truth About Lil' Gun...

Has anyone here experinced this?

 

[Skip Sackett]

'pends on what you use Lil' Gun in!

I spoke with Hodgdon about using Lil' Gun and lead bullets. I don't use Lil' Gun in handguns much because I don't need it in that platform. I have other powders I like better, just me.

I'll tell you where it seems that Lil' Gun shines though, the carbine rifle and the 44mag.

Indiana just started allowing deer hunting with some straight walled pistol cartridge rifles. I thought I would be cool and get a Marlin 1894 in 44mag so if the inkling took me, I could use it for some Bambi shooting!

I decided on Lil' Gun because of the velocity/pressure relationship. In the data it seemed that Lil' Gun gave better velocity with less pressure. To me that is a win/win.

At any rate, that is the only place I suggest using it.

By the way, I use it only on jacketed bullets. Others have used it on lead. Hopefully they will comment on their experience to that end.

 

[Milton]

I have used this powder with cast bullets in both my Winchester Model 94 and my Rossi '92.Both of these guns are chambered in .357 magnum.The problem I had with both guns was heavy leading which really surprised me!I have shot both guns with cast and 2400 with no leading. Apparently I am getting quite a bit of melting of the bullet base.Both guns were shooting very hot ,relatively high velocity reloads.
I wondered what the trade-off was with a powder that did indeed give higher velocities with lower pressure;it must be higher burn temperatures as the article by Bob Baker said.

 

[Erich]

I've experienced only expected leading with Lil' Gun (a little bit when throwing non-gas-checked bullets at between 1500 and 2000 fps), and never any forcing cone erosion.

I'm certainly not Bob Baker or Graybeard . . . I've shot a few hundred rounds of Lil' Gun loads in .357 and .41 only. However, I only use it for max loads, and I like it just fine based on how it's performed for me. Personally, it's what I usually go to for performance - particularly in longer barrels (since the otherwise large-ish spreads settle down from long tubes). I won't be giving it up soon.

 

[Nygma]

I've been using H110, 296, 2400, and IMR4227 in my magnum revolvers for years. Last year, I noticed Hodgdon's 454 data showed Lil' Gun driving a 260 grain bullet at velocities equal to what H110 and 296 can, but at 26% lower pressure. I was thinking that my brass should last a lot longer at the much lower pressures. You just don't get something for nothing I guess.
I'll reserve the Lil' Gun for jacketed bullets in the Contender.

 

[sza]

I've used Lil'Gun in .460 S&W and recently started using it for mid-range 240gr jacketed loads in .44mag. I've probably only shot a couple hundred rounds in each caliber, but I've been pleased with the results and haven't noticed any damage to my guns.

I have, however, noticed that it gets the barrel of my Model 29 hot in a real big hurry, just like Bob Baker mentioned in the thread linked above. I stop shooting when the barrel gets hot enough that it's bothersome to touch, which is usually around the time I'm ready for a break from .44mag recoil anyway.

 

[bluetopper]

If I want to go beyond the consistent and accurate performance of 2400 powder, I now rely on AA4100 powder.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

Interesting. I haven't noticed any issues with it, but I only use it with heavy for caliber jacketed bullets, not cast, and generally in 45 Colt although I do like it for some 180gr .357 Mag applications. As folks have observed, it is excellent in pistol cartridge carbines for heavy bullet loads.

 

[Jerry in SC]

It's a great powder for the .22 Hornet.

 

[largecaliberman]

I've excusively used LilGun in my 500 S&Ws shooting the 440gr Lee (gas checked) with no problems in my 8-3/8" barrel. However when shooting it out of my 4 incher, a little bit of a fire ball comes out ----but I love it.

 

[buck460XVR]

I used Lil' Gun in my .357s and the .460 with good success, but I too noticed the guns got hotter and got there faster than when using H110/W296 and IMR4227. Since I heard about heat and gun damage issues with Lil' Gun, I have quit using it all together in my magnums. No sense asking for trouble.........

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I posted to Mr. Baker in that link above about my .475. You can read his answer there if you choose.

I notice that a lot of guys here are referring to the "performance" they are getting with Lil'Gun, when that is not in question, nor the issue here.

It is the throat/forcing cone erosion that is taking place in high intensity rounds like the .454, .475, .500's etc. Since the .44 operates at much lower chamber pressures, with generally smaller powder charges, and thereby produces less heat, it won't affect a .44 as quickly.

I have been reloading for just shy of 30 years, and have a wide range of experiences with a lot of calibers, rifle, handgun, and shotgun.

However, Mr. Baker has access to real pressure testing equipment, and is in on the firing of more high intensity rounds than most of us will have occasion to fire in a year's time, and I will deferr to him. If he says that is what they have discovered, then I think it wise to listen to him.

As a side note, whether you are using lead or jacketed won't matter since the heat of the burning powder will be the same. The pressures may be a little lower with lead and equal charge weights, but that doesn't affect initial flame temps at the forcing cone.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've been using Lil'Gun for my 180gr .357 Magnum rounds for well over a year now. I mostly shoot them in my Carbine but have shot a few in my 4" M686. I hope no damage is being done to my Carbine, I really like that Marlin 1894C I'm shooting!

Anyone have a report on the effects of Lil'Gun in a Carbine???

 

[Erich]

Yeah, it works great!

 

[Xu Ting]

I just bought a pound of Lil' Gun that I was planning on using in my recently acquired 629, but after reading the above link, I'm not sure I want to do that. There seems to be some uncertainty about the extent of erosion problems in lower pressure (36k psi) cartridges. Can anyone offer any advice? If I use it under 180 gr hard cast bullets will I cause excessive wear, or with reasonable velocities will it be OK?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I would call Freedom Arms and chat with Bob Baker. He tests a lot of loads, and for different calibers, and probably has more firsthand knowledge than anyone on this subject.

 

[revolverfan2]

I shoot it in my 454 gas checked 300 grain bullets, no problems

 

[NKJ nut]

This powders reputation for causing forcing cone erosion is well deserved in my opinion. I have examined several revolvers with severe erosion after only a few hundred rounds of this powder, including one I had sold to a good friend. A formerly pristine Model 27.

IMHO lil'gun is a stinker in revolvers. I don't see how it could be any better for the bore of a rifle in the long run.

I have loaded several hundred .410 shotshells with it, with outstanding results.

Many handloaders have felt they were getting something for nothing with this powder. High velocity with lower pressure sounds great, but not with increased erosion of the forcing cone.