I've got a rant!! You may not like it....

[Lenny_D]

I've not been a member of this forum long. I'm just a very small time collector and only shooter grade guns. I love reading all the posts both positive and negative. I've learned so much from all the guys on this forum. I'm not against MIM parts as they have proved to be reliable for years. I don't think CNC is a bad word. I've been a toolmaker for over 35 years and have seen the buisness of cutting metal change almost exclusively to the use of CNC. If you want to stay in the buisness you best be looking at CNC. I know that CNC machines can be MORE accurate than conventional machines. Nostalgia is great as long as you are willing to pay for it. I keep hearing that used guns are less expensive than new ones but that is not always true,at least were I live.
The newest gun I own is a 442 no lock I bought last year and I couldn't be more pleased with it as far as fit, finish and function. The rest of my meager collection are older guns. I have a crooked barrel on a 66 no dash. That gun was made back in what 1977? I have a 27-2 that tends to lock up at times. Even with the light loads I reload for it. That gun was made in the 70's? I'm not unhappy with either gun and will eventually fix them. Old guns break too. Old guns have quality isuues too.
On the same token I think it's important that people get to comment on the issues of quality or lack "there of" of the present day S&W. There are some who seem to get angry at these people and even call their integrity into question. People should have the expectation that a product they purchase should be made correctly. Especially products that you pay a premium for and a company that is as respected as S&W.
I suppose it's just a matter of time before we all end up buying the newer guns. The older ones will eventually all be more expensive than new and as more people collect them they will become more rare. I love the old ones but will not discount ever owning the newer ones. On the same token I will not blindly continue to support a company that will not keep the quality of it's product to traditionally higher standards. It's great that S&W has a fantastic warranty but it would be greater if the design flaws and workmanship were kept to a minimum.

 

[brucev]

One thing I see is a lot of people complaining about S&W changing how they put their revolvers together and claiming that it's a degradation. Agreed.

For example all the claims that MIM is inferior when there is ZERO evidence that MIM is at all inferior to the older Forged parts. Fact is the S&W's MIM parts have shown they are every bit as durable as forged and with the high carbide content inherent with the MIM process the sear surfaces will likely be much more wear resistant than those on a Forged part. Possibly. I understand a bit of the debate regarding modern cast parts and forged parts. I must say I simply like the beautiful color-cased hammer/triggers of earlier S&W revolvers. I don't know that they are better parts. They are to me simply more attractive.

Then there is the complaint about the change to the internal firing pin. Simple truth is that the old style firing pin was always somewhat fragile and needed to be replaced somewhat frequently. Always wondered why S&W continued to use the hammer mounted firing pin.

Then there is the segment who claimed that the tensioned barrel was purely a cost cutting move. In spite of the fact that they have proven to be much more accurate in both S&W and Dan Wesson revolvers. No comment as I have no experience such barrels.

As for there not being any R&D in a revolver, that is only the case when your building a model 10 to the original 1899 design. All those changes that have taken place over the years are the direct result of R&D. So are all the new models that come out from time to time. Again, agree.

As for all the quality complaints we see, I'm quite certain that there were cockeyed barrels, huge B/C gaps, and hammers rubbing throughout the history of S&W revolvers. The simple truth is that people make mistakes and these deficits are the result of those mistakes. The only difference is that all those antiques have already had those faults fixed many years ago when there wasn't any internet to post complaints to.

I've had older S&W revolvers with hammers rubbing. I've not ever had one with a "cocked" barrel. I've had one with a almost oversized B/C gap.

 

[jimmyj]

HEY!!
Aren't we still "Hammering" GLOCKS??

 

[OldBlood]

Someone said, loosely, " market demand dictates production" The market in numbers is in LE. LE has gone to autos, won't see too many police trade-in revolvers in the future.There is a real possiblity that S&W could just stop making revolvers. They are more expensive to make, and if demand falls off, well, why keep making them? I completely agree on the car comparison, Smith has done a good job of combining new production methods with their traditional design which helps keep retail price reasonable. Old guys (some) seem to like old stuff made in the old days. I have olds Smiths and new Smiths, like them both. Don't like the lock and don't like the simple mistakes Smith lets through their quality control, picture attached of brand new 686 off center barrel that I now have to send back. Just bad business practice. Problems like this might be due to demand right now, but still. Another thought for all you collectors? How much of the price increase is driven by old guys buying all the guns they wish they had when they were young? Kinda like old guys going to Barrett Jackson, getting a little tipsy and plunking down $500,000 for a Cobra. Will young guys, when they get older want a $500,000 Cobra, don't think so. How many young guys, when they get older will want old Smiths to relive there youth. Their youth was in semi autos, black guns etc. The current spike in Smith prices could be a bulge in the market driven by aging boomers with $. I buy Smiths because I really like them, the design, history, quality, "well made things" My son could care less. Maybe when he gets older that will change, don't know. Where will your collection go?

 

[44 special Dave]

While it's somewhat informative to hear others opinions on the current state of S&W, threads like this are largely just interesting to read but contain little that will sway people.

After all opinions are like..... (including mine) everyone has one. Although I was glad to hear that "junk is junk". Thanks. I wouldn't have known that except for this thread. And it's not the same company it once was? What company is? The auto companies? Having been born and raised in Detroit I can tell you that isn't true.

Revolvers are making a little comeback in the small lightweight ccw market. Other than that, most gun stores have showcases full of semis and half a showcase with current snub nose revolvers. Just the way things are.

I have been shooting handguns since the early 1970s and have never owned a gun that was perfect in every way. I have never owned a semi auto that didn't malfunction (fail to eject, jam)at least once. Actually I have a sig p220 45 that has never failed with factory ammo but has hiccupped with reloads.

I have a few older revolvers and a few newer ones. They all have a purpose. This forum caters to the true believers. The casual gun owner is never going to pay $10,000 for an example of a registered magnum. Having said that, time marches on, someday this forum won't be around and most of won't either and our relatives will have a hard time selling dad's or grandpa's "rare" guns.

Buy what you like old or new and enjoy. Nothing is forever.

Dave

 

[BoDog]

All guns have a place in the market place, some are a classic style others are just the equivelent of a hammer, they do the job that has to be done. I carried a custom commander for 20+ years. I referred to Glocks as tupperware wonders, even though I went through classes with L.E. officers and Glocks and Sigs. The Sig guys and myself cleaned daily
the Glo people were spurratic to say the least. I had one stove-pipe in 1000 rounds, cleared immedialy and moved on. Neve saw a glock jam in class.
When I was forced to have back disc replacement surgery. Went to a tricked out Glock 27. When I carry it I don't feel naked the gun has no safety to flip the wrong way.
My back is now better and can go back to my older guns in the right holster.
I still don't love Tupperware but it filled a spot in my life after all I live in an area where 911 calls can take 15 minutes or more for response.

 

[Engieman]

Good points all, nice job Terry. I have Smiths from the 50's to the present. My 'best' examples are the 1953 pre-15 .38 Special, and my recent 625-8PC .45ACP vintage 2012. Both ends of the spectrum. Having said that, I'm not getting rid of any of them, love them all like children with separate personalities. When I say 'best,' I'm referring to fit and finish, tolerances, and quality of construction. My new 625 is a piece of art. Beautiful to shoot and hold, wonderful design. It shoots 10's, that's what's important to me...and it looks good doing it each and every time I pull the trigger. Not a perfect world though - what initially irritated me upon opening the box was the cable lock 'made in China.' However, after mulling over the nasty note I was going to send back to Smith w/ cable enclosed, I came to the realization that this was a business decision by Smith driven by legal and economic realities. Still don't like it, but I'm not going to bash Smith, nor do something to cause gun prices to go up because they need to pay more to meet this compliance requirement. Who knows, maybe someone sitting around the board table say's 'sure we'll comply....will buy the cheapest, crappiest lock we can find...stay in compliance, not raise prices...customers aren't going to use it anyway.' This is a slippery slope. There are other battles I will fight

Being a traditional, practical kind of guy, I resisted for the longest time any of the new polymer guns or any finish other than a deep, luster blue. However, the reality is there are practical advantages to these 'advances.' My carry guns are now polymer with Robar type finishes. They go bang every time, beautiful designs, wonderfully engineered, functional; and are perfectly comprised of materials designed to live in a closed, sweaty environment without adverse effect and remain reliable.

One last point on the relevancy of Revolvers and their future. When selecting guns for my wife and daughter, both of them chose Revolvers for there simplicity, reliability, and their intuitive firing operation. They could have had anything they wanted, it was entirely their decision

 

[quinn]

My collection ranges from a 1917 to post-war HDs to P&Rs to 2 of the latest models with locks. I love em all! Yeah, S&W couldn't produce a 5 shot 357 fully loaded revolver at 15 oz. for pocket carry in 1972.

 

[PA Reb]

I may as well throw my thoughts in here since I have done a bit of complaining in the past about S&W QC. I too like the older models but I would have no problem at all buying a new Smith in a caliber I want that wasn't made many years ago. I recently bought a brand new 500 magnum with a 6 1/2" barrel that operates extremely well. I inspected this gun in my FFL's shop closely before buying it and I couldn't find anything wrong with it. Conversely, if I wanted a nice model 686 or another model 29, I'd definitely go for an older pre-lock model because I just happen to like that era revolver better.

That said, I don't believe there is a manufacturer out there today that produces a better revolver than S&W. In my mind, I try to compare S&W (or any company) to the company / field I work in - a hospital. All hospitals today have become "competing companies" where we all expect the best of care. Guess what? With all the cuts made to lower cost and maintain market viability, mistakes, often big mistakes with dreadful consequences, happen all the time.

Rock on S&W - I think you're doing the best possible job!

 

[44wheelman]

Agreed, change is necessary to be competitive.

However, change can be incorporated that has higher positive impact on the company than what has happened to S&W. For instance, Ruger. They added an internal lock with little or no impact on function or appearance.

I'm not going to go on about how great Ruger is, they're not; but they have managed to increase their marketshare and without diminishing percieved quality and/or company reputation.

 

[Frank237]

I'm sixty two and THE first pistol I ever shot was a .32 Smith snubbie when I was seven or eight. Started buying Smith revolvers as soon as the law allowed. My first a 28-2. I PROUDLY carried a M-19 as a cop in Jersey for several years. Then a 686 and a 5903 as a cop out here in Montana. To me the term REVOLVER brings up a picture of a Smiith & Wesson 19 or maybe a 27 in MY minds eye.

I've probably owned over two hundred Smiths , maybe more over the years. Still have sixty or more in the safe.

I can remember WAITING for the new S&W catalog to be released each year. And being excited when it finally arrived. I haven't been excited about ANYTHING from Smith in about 15 years. Between the lock and the design changes...Sorry simply not the same anymore.

You can call me NEGATIVE or whatever you wish. Try to put a POSITIVE spin on it. Candy coat it all you want but suck on a bar of soap for a few minutes. It's still a bar of soap.

FN in MT

 

[BobC357]

I enjoy going to the range with my Mod 28 that I bought almost 40 years ago. I shoot at 25 yards or more; open sight, no laser... the mostly younger folks with their autos shooting up close. I nail the black and they're all over the place. The loud noise from the mags blocks out their little pops too. The HP is a crowd pleaser.

I've had quite a few watch and some even want to try my round gun after they see it in action (declined). I don't know if they ever buy one but, seeing revolvers in use certainly increases awareness. The little Judge is another attention getter and is also a revolver.

 

[michael thornton]

well im fixing to drive 4 hrs round trip to but a nickel 19-3 21/2 inch, does that tell you anything?

 

[ladder13]

As for all the quality complaints we see, I'm quite certain that there were cockeyed barrels, huge B/C gaps, and hammers rubbing throughout the history of S&W revolvers. The simple truth is that people make mistakes and these deficits are the result of those mistakes. The only difference is that all those antiques have already had those faults fixed many years ago when there wasn't any internet to post complaints to.

Uh yep...........

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

well im fixing to drive 4 hrs round trip to but a nickel 19-3 21/2 inch, does that tell you anything?

It tells me that the place you are going is two hours away from you.

 

[ladder13]

..............

 

[blujax01]

I've said it before - this is a forum for some pretty picky players.

"Typical" gun owners can hardly fathom owning a second gun, much less the dozens and dozens collectors own here.

If I were to talk to Joe Six-Pack about "that piece of trash 686 - look at that. There's almost a full one thousandth of an inch difference from one side of the cylinder to the other" - he would nod, smile nervously, and back away slowly.

Talk about MIM and they are going to think that S&W has moved production to Tijuana.

Internal locks? Sounds easier than chaining it up with that bicycle lock that's in the box!

"Clocked" barrel? Oh, you mean GLock is supplying S&W with parts.



We ain't normal, people. We ain't normal people either

 

[Frizzman]

Good Essay

I am 58 years old and I remember well the S&W's back in the days before the pinned barrels and recessed chambers firing pins on the hammer nose. Colt got away from the hammer mounted firing pin with the Mark III revolvers. Believe it or not, I got a couple of lemons back then. I bought a M29-2 back in 78 that had a bad polish job on the sideplate and a rough chamber that caused it to have to take a trip back to Springfield. The customer service back then wasn't too good and the repair took a long time. I also had a M66(no dash) that couldn't hit the backside of the barn while standing in the barn. The rifling was screwed up and the firing pin bushing was rough.

Now, don't get me wrong, I like the oldies and have my share of them. I also have a couple with the newer construction features. One is a 629-whatever and a M625 Mountain Gun. Both have proven to be well constructed and accurate and dependable. I don't particularly like the IL but I just ignore it. The 629 has handled some pretty hot ammo with no ill effects.

I got a Colt Trooper that was out of time straight out of the box. Unfortunately, I wasn't knowledgable enough to catch it before I bought it. It was returned to Colt and it took over 6 mos to get back and when I got it, they had put a beautiful, shiny nickel plate on it. I didn't order the nickel job and they sent a bill to the gun shop for $120. They refused to pay it and I sold the revolver. Now, many mourn the loss of Colt revolvers but their manufacturing methods didn't keep pace with the market.

So, I agree with the OP. When I go to the range, I NEVER see anyone under my age shooting revolvers. Its all plastic except for the rare bird with a 1911. I brought the .44 to the indoor range and wound up with an audience of young folks watching in awe the old geezer with the funny cannon. I agree that things change and its misleading to always pine for the "good ole days". they weren't always so good...

 

[Frizzman]

My proof reading wasn't too good...I meant that I remember the days before the pinned barrels, etc were eliminated...Hopefully my first sentence makes more sense now...

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

My wife went through her CWP class last Saturday. I went with her to the range qualification to be with her and hold her ammo for reloading. 15 shooters on the line. She shot her 50 round qualification with my little nickel 2" 34 with nary a hiccup or problem. Where as down the line there were holdups at each stage with the auto shooters. Mostly 380's & 9mm's. I saw jams/loaded rounds ejected out on the ground and people forgetting to flip their "dingus" back up to fire or trying to reholster with the "dingus" up and cocked with the finger on the trigger.
It was almost hilarious to watch. Her instructors were Glock guys but had high praise for the 1911. Unbeknowing to them that was what was riding in an ISWB holster under my shirt.