Ivory Ban in the United States - It's Really Here.

[CptCurl]

Admin Edit-
Once again, the topic is Ivory Regulation, and that is the ONLY topic.
We WON'T be sliding into general political commentary.

Same as yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before and the day before, and the day before, and the day before,, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day bef and the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before..............

______________________________

You may have heard of the Executive Order issued by President Obama early this year concerning ivory. This order is not fully implemented, nor have the regulations come forth. But it is with us right now.

Sadly, the weight of this new heavy-handed government action is becoming apparent. If anybody had their eyes on the just completed James D. Julia auction you would have seen it first hand.

Any firearm that had even a speck of ivory, such as a front sight bead, had an entry stating the following:

James D. Julia Auctioneers complies with all federal laws and regulations (Please review our Ivory Position Statement): The African ivory mounts on this item were in the country long before the January 8th, 1990’s CITE appendix. As per the President’s Executive Order of February 2014, this gun accompanied by an appropriate ESA is legal to sell and buy. However, no ivory will accompany this gun when you purchase it unless you hire John Sexton to prepare an ESA statement. If you hire John Sexton to prepare an ESA statement, the cost is $1,500.00. John Sexton is an independent consultant with appropriate qualifications to prepare ESA statements. John Sexton’s address is 1962 Portage Landing North, North Palm Beach, Florida 33408. It is the buyer’s responsibility to make payment to John Sexton for ESA statements. Documents are prepared by John Sexton and not James D. Julia Auctioneers. Once statements are prepared, a copy will be presented to Julia’s and they will then present you with the ivory mounts for this gun. Another copy should be kept with your gun.

THIS GUN WILL BE SOLD WITHOUT ITS IVORY. IF THE BUYER WISHES TO HAVE THE IVORY, THEY MUST HIRE JOHN SEXTON TO PREPARE AN ESA “ANTIQUE CERTIFICATION” (COST $1,500).

This is a copy and paste from Lot #2265. You can see it here: Lot 2265 That piece of contraband has "An ivory bead front sight is longitudinally dovetailed into front ramp."

Julia has posted their Ivory Position Statement here: Julia Ivory Position Statement

So boys and girls, this Executive Order signed by our President is very real and will show its impact in the months and years to come. It's shocking really. For most of us with ivory appointments on our guns it will be impossible to comply with the policies announced by the Fish & Wildlife Service: U.S. Fish & Wildlife Ivory Ban Policies. Note that every burden of proof is placed on the owner (seller). You must prove what species it is and that it was legally imported, etc. The government has no burden of proof at all.

I have very little ivory. A few doubles with ivory beads and a pair of ivory grips for a Colt 1911. I wouldn't be able to "prove" the legality of any of it under the regulations. What about you?

Curl

 

[CptCurl]

Here are some photos of a Suhl 9.3x74R double rifle I owned some years back (these photos are from Champlin's website some years after I parted with this rifle):

That beautiful work of art is now virtually unsellable.

Curl

 

[Art Doc]

There will be lawsuits.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

WOW! Just WOW!

 

[ladder13]

Can't the next President rescind/remove/null/overturn an EO?

 

[BigBoy99]

Can't the next President rescind/remove/null/overturn an EO?

Do you think Hillary would do something like that?

 

[Calaveras Slim]

Do you think Hillary would do something like that?

Not no, but HeXX no. She would probably make it stricter. Or if she gets elected, we may see some thing we surely won't like.

I sure am glad I got my Colt with Ivory grips before all this happened.

 

[-db-]

It is my understanding that Obama's order is not yet in effect, thus it would appear the auction house and John Sexton have devised a clever money-making scheme whereby they're taking advantage of buyers' fear and uncertainty regarding ivory legality.

Boone Trading, for example, is still selling elephant ivory grips without any additional "Antique Certification" surcharge.

1911 Preban Elephant Ivory Grips

 

[CptCurl]

It is my understanding that Obama's order is not yet in effect, thus it would appear the auction house and John Sexton have devised a clever money-making scheme whereby they're taking advantage of buyers' fear and uncertainty regarding ivory legality.

Boone Trading, for example, is still selling elephant ivory grips without any additional "Antique Certification" surcharge.

1911 Preban Elephant Ivory Grips

Unfortunately, your understanding is wrong. Go to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife link and read what is said there:

U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - International Affairs

We are currently undertaking a series of administrative actions to implement a nearly complete ban on commercial elephant ivory trade. These actions involve different timelines and processes, some of which will go into effect immediately and others which are open to public comment. We will strive to keep you informed of the latest developments, and we encourage you to check this page regularly for updates.​

I'm sure there are a lot of dealers who aren't up on this development. They will be.

Every sale requires a "CITES pre-Convention certificate." Where do you get that?

Curl

 

[federali]

Not Just Guns

Many of the better, custom grade guitars use ivory nuts. The guitar nut is the saddle near the end of the neck upon which strings rest, just before the tuning machines.

 

[CptCurl]

Dang, I just remembered I have a George Herron Model 14 folding knife with ivory scales. It used to be a pretty valuable item. . .

This is not a photo of my knife, but mine is identical:

Curl

 

[Arik]

I'm sorry but this seems to be a problem for auction houses. I sell you my gun and we are done.

 

[bamabiker]

Dang, I just remembered I have a George Herron Model 14 folding knife with ivory scales. It used to be a pretty valuable item. . .

This is not a photo of my knife, but mine is identical:

Curl

Ain't worth a plug nickle now. Send it to me and I'll give a quarter for it, 5 times it's worth.

 

[BearBio]

With 238 agents (likely fewer now), I don't think FWS will be real active in this arena. Especially with cutbacks. This won't be a high priority and,anyway, Admin actions may take years to implement.

 

[-db-]

Unfortunately, your understanding is wrong. Go to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife link and read what is said there:

U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - International Affairs

We are currently undertaking a series of administrative actions to implement a nearly complete ban on commercial elephant ivory trade. These actions involve different timelines and processes, some of which will go into effect immediately and others which are open to public comment. We will strive to keep you informed of the latest developments, and we encourage you to check this page regularly for updates.​

I'm sure there are a lot of dealers who aren't up on this development. They will be.

Every sale requires a "CITES pre-Convention certificate." Where do you get that?

Curl

If you carefully read the language at that USFWS page, all it discusses are actions they PLAN TO or WILL implement at some undisclosed future date.

UPDATE as of 9/4/14: We anticipate publication of a proposed rule in late 2014.

Furthermore, from the FAQ section:

What are the cumulative effects if all of these administrative actions are finalized?

As outlined below, these administrative actions, if finalized, provide limited exceptions for activities that we believe would either benefit the conservation of elephants or that do not contribute to poaching and illegal trade...

Apparently, none of these proposed actions have yet been finalized.

 

[-db-]

Nutmeg Sports, another large ivory grips outfit, like Boone Trading, is still selling elephant ivory grips without any additional CITES/"Antique Certification" surcharge.

Nutmeg Sports, LLC

Collins Craft is another: http://www.collinscraftgrips.com/elephant-ivory-grips.php?Q=Elephant

 

[-db-]

Ol' Sarge is yet another still selling elephant ivory grips at normal price (no ridiculous $1500 "Antique Certification" surcharge):

Home Page

I've had a steady stream of natural Elephant Ivory moving through the shop, but unbelievably, some still don't know that I do them! Recently there has been an explosion of Ivory orders as more sets have gotten out there, and people are starting to realize that they were paying much more for grips that didn't fit near as well. It's a good thing! If you're interested in natural Ivory for your pistol, please contact me for details.

Like I said, it appears Julia Auctions and John Sexton have devised a clever money-making scheme whereby they're taking advantage of buyers' fear and uncertainty regarding ivory legality.

 

[rojodiablo]

Here are some photos of a Suhl 9.3x74R double rifle I owned some years back (these photos are from Champlin's website some years after I parted with this rifle):

That beautiful work of art is now virtually unsellable.

Curl

You know; private collectors and brokers who know what the hell they are dealing with won't give spit 1 about this; they will deal privately with their goods. And, there won't be anything, as it all winds up being much ado about nothing.

See Gibson guitars. One shop gets a thumping, but overall, in the end, very few of us wind up getting harassed over our evil guitars. (I don't play a guitar, nor own one. But I have friends who keep guitars like I collect fishing rods. They have literally hundreds of them, and one collection is stupendous.) Does not affect most operations, in any way at all.

I agree with government overbearing being ridiculous, and out of line, and over the top.

But if that particular jewel of a rifle wants a new home...... it's going to find a new home, on a bed of hundred dollar bills. No doubt about it.

 

[CptCurl]

It is my understanding that Obama's order is not yet in effect . . .

Again, your understanding is unfortunately incorrect. Here is the Director's Order 210, first issued February 25, 2014 and revised May 15, 2014.

Director's Order 210, Administrative Actions to Strengthen U.S. Trade Controls for Elephant Ivory, Rhinoceros Horn, and Parts and Products of Other Species Listed Under the Endangered Species Act (ESA)

Section 4 of the order:

Sec. 4. When is this Order effective? This Order is effective immediately. It remains in effect until incorporated into the Service Manual or until amended, superseded, or revoked, whichever comes first. If we do not amend, supersede, or revoke it, the Order will terminate in 18 months.​

Please understand I am not advocating in favor of this action. I don't approve of what's being done. I'm not trying to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do. I'm as surprised as anybody about this. The Julia auction alerted me to the reality of it. I'm simply reporting what I have learned.

Curl

 

[CptCurl]

Like I said, it appears Julia Auctions and John Sexton have devised a clever money-making scheme whereby they're taking advantage of buyers' fear and uncertainty regarding ivory legality.

Perhaps that is true. I don't think so. Julia's is pretty darn reputable.

I don't know anything about this guy, John Sexton or of the service he evidently provides. I'm simply the messenger.

I don't think many people will pay $1,500 for a certificate to cover an ivory front bead on a rifle or shotgun. As for the German double rifle with ivory inlays that I formerly owned, it would be worthwhile.

As this develops, I would expect other experts to emerge who are qualified to issue the needed certification. One would hope that with some competition the fee will come to something reasonable.

Curl