Ivory Stocks

[papalondog]

I was advised to move this post here from the later model forum. Anyone help me with some info on what I have?

This pair of grips came on a round butt K-frame I picked up today. No doubt in my mind they are real ivory. They have the S&W emblem. Are they factory or aftermarket? What might the value of them be? They have some "season checking" on the bottom, but no splits, chips or cracks.

 

[papalondog]

I was advised to move this post here from the later model forum. Anyone help me with some info on what I have?

This pair of grips came on a round butt K-frame I picked up today. No doubt in my mind they are real ivory. They have the S&W emblem. Are they factory or aftermarket? What might the value of them be? They have some "season checking" on the bottom, but no splits, chips or cracks.

 

[cgt4570]

Those are absolutely beautiful, and 'yes' they are factory! I've seen a lot of pearls just like those (and have a pair of K pearls fitted to my .44 DA Russian) but I haven't seen very many ivories at all. Maybe it's because they didn't survive as well as pearl. At the time, pearl was the more expensive, and more desirable material, so I assume more pearls were manufactured. Time frame would be the same as the walnut grips with those large gold tone medallions. Off the top of my head, circa 1910-1920 give or take a couple years.
I have to ask if you're going to separate them and sell them (I'd definitely be interested) or if you're going to keep them on the gun.
Chris

 

[papalondog]

I haven't really decided what I want to do with them. I would like to know the approximate value or what they might bring. I know they did NOT come factory on the model 19-3 snubbie I took them off, but they did look nice on it and I wouldn't have a big problem leaving them on it. I just don't feel like I appreciate them as much as some collector of the earlier models might.....
Lonnie

 

[Guest]

Papa my guess is that they would be in the $350.00 range + or -. Nice grips!

 

[Onomea]

Those are very nice ivories.

I agree with Lawandorder's estimate, and a collector looking for just those grips might even go a little higher!

 

[rburg]

I sure can't conclude that they're factory ivories. They're very nice and I agree with the above price, maybe even a little higher. Its a common thing for someone to set factory medallions in aftermarket ivory. There will be almost no way to prove it one way or the other. Had they come originally on a M19, they most likely would have a much smaller gold medallion. Those were supplied with factory exotic grips in the postwar period.

And yes, grips from the 19-teens do look nice on newer guns.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

I also have some reluctance concerning their provenance being "Factory Original". Is it the image or does the right grip panel medallion appear to be out of allignment or a bit crooked? I'm certain the medallion style is just after WWI, but they were often set in a pair of aftermarket stocks, made to order. I have a few similar pairs of these made in traditional materials, pearl, ivory and stag. I also have a pair made from an old bakelite type material called "catalyn". They supposedly were to compare favorably with ivory or pearl for much less dough, but they really don't come close to that ambition.

Your stocks would likely fit the 1899 and 1902 Hand Ejectors, but I don't believe the medallions would be correct for that period, so it's probably a later model 1905 3rd. or 4th. change with round butt. Despite any issue or disagreement concerning their provenance, they are quite handsome. I also believe the estimates offered are rather conservative, but that's no surprise.

Even if you don't have a strong interest in pre war guns, you might consider that those stocks are unique enough to justify acquiring an appropriate period revolver to wear them.

Nice catch!

Edited to add:
"catalyn"....couldn't remember that name.

Here's a photo. Note that the medallions are not set correctly or evenly. Kinda weird looking don't you think?

Another forum member informed me these were made by a company in Texas that made radio housings from the same material in the 1930's. I keep tryin' but I can't seem to get any reception!

 

[Guest]

From what I've read from Roy, he has said that most of the early Ivories etc. were NOT Factory but were done by the "Distributors" in the early part of the Century. The Factory did "Wood" and left the other stuff up to others. They would at times send a "Special" gun out to be fitted with these Special Stocks before Engraving or other Special order Plating or such. If they have a number on them you might be able to determine if they were Factory and just what gun they came on but if there is no number I'd really "doubt" that they were Factory. I suggest you contact Roy Jinks for a "Professional" Opinion. Mike

 

[handejector]

They are factory.

 

[Onomea]

Okay, Lee, I believe you!

Now, could you tell us why you know that to be the case? I always appreciate the opportunity to learn more from the more experienced among us!

 

[Sebago Son]

With those medaliions I would guess these to be Pre WW1, 1910-1915 period, perhaps earlier.

The estimate of $3-400 probably right on the money.

Those sure would look good on my M&P 1899 First Model serial number 781.

Drew

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

One factor to consider concerning dating these fine looking stocks. On the basis of the medallion style alone, 1910-1920, according to SCSW. However, that speaks only to the medallions. If these are indeed aftermarket grips, they could have been mounted at a later time with the medallions harvested from factory stocks. I am no expert on elephant ivory but they are nicely mellowed in color and demonstrate "checking" which suggest age and exposure perhaps compatible with the same time period. Recently, I've seen newly produced mastodon ivory stocks which are ancient, at least according to the makers claim. Even carbon dating would only determine the age of the material but not when it was crafted into a revolver stock. Perhaps the screw and escutcheons are a clue to identifying them as factory?

In view of this rationale. Logically then, I don't understand how anyone could conclude where and when these were made with complete conviction? Short of a historical letter documenting shipment of a revolver with these stocks or citation of factory documents or sales literature that reflect offerings of these as an accessory, I remain reluctant to accept them as being made in the factory.

I also would be delighted to learn that my opinion is incorrect, for completely selfish reasons.

 

[DHENRY]

Most of the 'new/old' mastadon I've seen have a more-pronounced brown tinge to them.
I have to throw my lot in with Lee...The coloration, front and back, along with the virtually-perfect raised rim on the medallions indicate a factory job.
Those rims are VERY fragile, particularly after 90+ years, and they tend to show wavers and bends when 'transplanted'.
Don

 

[cflier]

No one, even Roy Jinks can tell if these are factory or not but obviously everyone will have an opinion and his is propbably better than ours. They are correct for the period. S&W started putting medallions in their stocks in the early to mid 1890s. And I know Mike's (KKG) memory is better than mine, but I heard Roy say that the company started jobbing out some of their special order stocks in the late 20s and 30s and that they were non medallion. So, again I believe that they are correct for the period and ( heres the opinion that this all leads up to ) I think they are factory grips.
Mark

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Well considering the fellow is trying to assign a value, I think it's critical to that end to reach a consensus. Do these stocks, in and of themselves have a value range? Of course they do I think we can agree. Now if they turn out to be bonafide factory original equipment would they be worth a premium? If so, how do you provide provenance other than subjective opinions based upon observation? Would it suffice to represent them as factory original based upon the examination of several accepted expert authorities? If so, what happens later when some other prominent authority (like Jinks) say's that ain't so.

In the absence of conclusive proof, but out of respect to others opinions, I'd say they might be, or even probably could be factory original. However, I would not rush to judgement without that caveat.

 

[rburg]

Lee's comment was interesting and completely out of character for him. Unless, of course, he's familiar with the ones in question. Most folks say things like "they look like factory" or "they're good enough to be factory".

Judging from the checking on them, they're fairly old and look like antique (not necessarily 100 years old) elephant ivory. The yellowing comes from being out of sunlight. Thats why your momma left the piano keys open. The checking comes from years of drying out. Up to a point, both are very desireable because it shows age. (Unlike us old foggies, that wish we didn't show quite so much age.)

From the late 1800s thru the present, everyone that made gun accessories wanted to get in the business of making replacement grips. Early on, the factory promoted their products as superior. The way to tell that was the genuine factory medallions. As time went on, people just scavenged those and installed them in aftermarket products. It got to the point where you couldn't tell "superior" factory items from aftermarket. Then as the factory started producing inferior items (I offer up the 1970s excuse for walnut as wood for examples), sometimes aftermarket was better.

In my late 1930s and early 1940s Shooters Bibles, you could pick up a set of ivories for about $6. It wasn't rocket science to put in the medallions off your worn old grips.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Then as the factory started producing inferior items (I offer up the 1970s excuse for walnut as wood for examples), sometimes aftermarket was better.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[arfmel]

Those are very nice stocks. I agree with the post suggesting that you buy a gun of correct era for the stocks.

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by Onomea:
Okay, Lee, I believe you!

Now, could you tell us why you know that to be the case? I always appreciate the opportunity to learn more from the more experienced among us!

Guys,
I have to pack and ship more stuff today than a good mule could carry- I'll be lucky to get it done, and I hate to fall away from the "next-day" shipping I have always adhered to. So, no way I can get to the pics and scans it will take to support my opinion, but I PROMISE I'll be back with it, God-willing.