J frame or Shield
- Thread starter Axis223
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cd228
Member
If the Shield is too small for your hands, I'd look at a S&W 3913, M&P 9mm C (the old 12 round version), or a SIG 239. All will get you higher capacity, the ability to mount night sights or other high vis sights, longer sight radius, etc. Or you could look at the M&P 2.0 Compact 3.6, Glock 26 or the new SIG X-compact. I'd recommend asking your shooting buddies what they have available and try shooting some of their pistols until you find one that you can shoot accurately.
I'd also recommend getting some targets that have marked vital areas and use them for accuracy comparison.
I'd also recommend getting some targets that have marked vital areas and use them for accuracy comparison.
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Shield with a Magguts spring all the way.
I have four 5-shot j-frames, but my EDC is an LC9 - so the Shield gets my vote. I can and do pocket carry it or carry it in an IWB holster at 3 o'clock or carry it in a inner breast pocket of my vest.
The 38 and 9mm are roughly equivalent in ballistic terms and 7+1>5
In terms of additional capacity my philosophy is
"It's better to have and not need than to need and not have..."
Besides, a carry gun gets beat up, and I'd rather see a cheap, easily replaceable plastic fantastic take the beating instead of one of my classic S&Ws
The 38 and 9mm are roughly equivalent in ballistic terms and 7+1>5
In terms of additional capacity my philosophy is
"It's better to have and not need than to need and not have..."
Besides, a carry gun gets beat up, and I'd rather see a cheap, easily replaceable plastic fantastic take the beating instead of one of my classic S&Ws
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Since 1976, I have carried either a K frame or S&W auto with an S&W airweight snub as a backup. Currently, I prefer a 3913 and a custom 642. The way your poll is phrased I'd prefer the snub. I have a lot of practice shooting a revolver. If that weren't the case, I might go with the Shield. I do own and shoot a Gen 1 Shield with the Apex trigger but i still prefer the 3913.
Force me to choose between those two and I will choose the J-frame. Just more versatility and easy-peasy to pocket carry. I can stoke it with anything from tgt wadcutters to fire-snorting Buff Bore/Underwood ammo.
Might want to add a Crimson Trace laser grip to it, though. IMO, the CTLG is THE killer app for the J-frame. Beats any tritium night sight setup for low-light shooting. And be sure to pack a speed strip with it.
The Shield seems a rather small step up from the J-frame to have to pay the belt holster penalty. If I am going to gear up with a holster, I want what I have holstered to be worth the effort. For me that means, at minimum, a snubby K-frame. More likely one of my 1911s: OACP, CDR, or GM. Many other good belt-holster handguns out there with more capability than J-frame or Shield.
Also, I think folk get the impression that it will be CCW-er going toe-to-toe vs rifle-armed mass murderer. Eff that, sideways. Sure, you might roll snake eyes and that is what you must face, but if I have ANY time/distance to work with, my first action will be to preserve my hide and the hides of my family. Get off the X and seek cover/concealment. Then see about engaging the mass-murderer. Preferably from a position with cover and with support, head shots at 25 yards are no big whoop with my SW638, especially if I shoot SA.
In any case--J-frame, Shield, or other--being armed increases your chance of survival.
Might want to add a Crimson Trace laser grip to it, though. IMO, the CTLG is THE killer app for the J-frame. Beats any tritium night sight setup for low-light shooting. And be sure to pack a speed strip with it.
The Shield seems a rather small step up from the J-frame to have to pay the belt holster penalty. If I am going to gear up with a holster, I want what I have holstered to be worth the effort. For me that means, at minimum, a snubby K-frame. More likely one of my 1911s: OACP, CDR, or GM. Many other good belt-holster handguns out there with more capability than J-frame or Shield.
Also, I think folk get the impression that it will be CCW-er going toe-to-toe vs rifle-armed mass murderer. Eff that, sideways. Sure, you might roll snake eyes and that is what you must face, but if I have ANY time/distance to work with, my first action will be to preserve my hide and the hides of my family. Get off the X and seek cover/concealment. Then see about engaging the mass-murderer. Preferably from a position with cover and with support, head shots at 25 yards are no big whoop with my SW638, especially if I shoot SA.
In any case--J-frame, Shield, or other--being armed increases your chance of survival.
I remember a time when it wasn't uncommon to hear that competition shooters used their full-size revolvers and pistols for competition, but carried snub nose revolvers away from the range.
I remember not too long ago when you could talk to LE firearms instructors and find that while they liked their hi-cap duty weapons while working, the snub nose revolver was the most commonly carried off-duty weapon?
The common response to asking an experienced LE instructor why "just" a snub? Because it was considered generally adequate against potentially encountering 1 or 2 attackers while off-duty.
What's changed?
Now, OP ...
If you can't experience consistently good accuracy when shooting your J-frame, and you're unable to consistently obtain a firm and solid grasp of the little Shield because of the size of your hands?
Well, maybe you need to look at something other than a J-frame or a Shield.
Or, maybe you need to get some training and learn how to shoot the snub better. Or go ahead and try the different holster (but that won't change the size of the grip frame).
While there are times when I'll still belt on one of my larger guns for retirement CCW, more often than not I still prefer to pocket holster one of my J-frames. I invested some years of the range time I worked as a LE firearms instructor in running my snubs in training conditions and drills. Whether it was the typical 3-11yd, 3-15yd or 3-25yd courses-of-fire (depending on the courses being used at the time), or just checking my basics by shooting paper or steel silhouettes out to 35-50yds with my DA/DAO snubs, I worked to maintain skill with them.
If I can't fit a snub into the short and tight front pocket of some particular jeans? Well, that's why I eventually picked up a couple of LCP's. They saw range and qual time in the same drills and qual courses as the snubs saw.
The main difference, for me, is that while I found the LCP .380's were a bit more difficult to run out at 35+yds. Then again, I don't carry one of the LCP's expecting to ever use one to try and engage an active shooter at longer distances.
Capacity is fine, if that's a concern. It's not so much of one to me.
If you can't get a good grasp/grip on the gun, though, or you can't get consistently good accuracy, it might be the gun/shooter "interface", or it might be the shooter's skill. Figure out what needs to be addressed and how to best address and resolve it.
Just some thoughts.
I remember not too long ago when you could talk to LE firearms instructors and find that while they liked their hi-cap duty weapons while working, the snub nose revolver was the most commonly carried off-duty weapon?
The common response to asking an experienced LE instructor why "just" a snub? Because it was considered generally adequate against potentially encountering 1 or 2 attackers while off-duty.
What's changed?
Now, OP ...
If you can't experience consistently good accuracy when shooting your J-frame, and you're unable to consistently obtain a firm and solid grasp of the little Shield because of the size of your hands?
Well, maybe you need to look at something other than a J-frame or a Shield.
Or, maybe you need to get some training and learn how to shoot the snub better. Or go ahead and try the different holster (but that won't change the size of the grip frame).
While there are times when I'll still belt on one of my larger guns for retirement CCW, more often than not I still prefer to pocket holster one of my J-frames. I invested some years of the range time I worked as a LE firearms instructor in running my snubs in training conditions and drills. Whether it was the typical 3-11yd, 3-15yd or 3-25yd courses-of-fire (depending on the courses being used at the time), or just checking my basics by shooting paper or steel silhouettes out to 35-50yds with my DA/DAO snubs, I worked to maintain skill with them.
If I can't fit a snub into the short and tight front pocket of some particular jeans? Well, that's why I eventually picked up a couple of LCP's. They saw range and qual time in the same drills and qual courses as the snubs saw.
The main difference, for me, is that while I found the LCP .380's were a bit more difficult to run out at 35+yds. Then again, I don't carry one of the LCP's expecting to ever use one to try and engage an active shooter at longer distances.
Capacity is fine, if that's a concern. It's not so much of one to me.
If you can't get a good grasp/grip on the gun, though, or you can't get consistently good accuracy, it might be the gun/shooter "interface", or it might be the shooter's skill. Figure out what needs to be addressed and how to best address and resolve it.
Just some thoughts.
Squarebutt
Member
I own a 642-1 and carry it often, but in some situations it would be inferior to almost any autoloader, assuming comparable ammo strength. In a street robbery at close range with one or two adversaries it's fine.
But in a mall or other open area with no avenue of escape, a Shield with a spare magazine or two is a much better choice. I recently bought a Shield .45 and I'm finding it easy to carry and easier to to hit targets with, especially at a distance. It's not too small to grip, and my glove size is XXL. Here in MA concealment is critical, as a glimpse of your holstered pistol will almost certainly result in a call to police. The Shield conceals better than any double-stack gun.
I'll never get rid of my J-frames, but I think the Shield will earn a place. Just one man's opinion.
But in a mall or other open area with no avenue of escape, a Shield with a spare magazine or two is a much better choice. I recently bought a Shield .45 and I'm finding it easy to carry and easier to to hit targets with, especially at a distance. It's not too small to grip, and my glove size is XXL. Here in MA concealment is critical, as a glimpse of your holstered pistol will almost certainly result in a call to police. The Shield conceals better than any double-stack gun.
I'll never get rid of my J-frames, but I think the Shield will earn a place. Just one man's opinion.
snowman.45
Member
When I entered law enforcement in 1977, the standard back-up and off-duty carry for most of us was a S&W J-frame (usually a Model 36 or 60) or Colt Det. Special (or Agent , Cobra, etc.). I carried a J-frame for a vast majority of my off-duty carry, while carrying a Model 28-2 or Model 19 until the semi-autos came along. At that time, they were the S&W 645/4506 and 4516. I carried the 4516 or a 3913 off-duty after that. Then, it was Glocks, Sigs and Glocks again until I retired in 2014.
Most of these years in two departments, I was a firearms instructor, which gave me a lot of time and opportunity to work with my carry guns. I felt complete confidence in the J-frames, as well as the compact S/A S&Ws and compact Glocks. Regardless, I always carried reloads; strips or speed loaders for the J's and at least one magazine for the S/A's.
The point in my age and nostalgia-driven ramble, is that either will serve you well, depending on your needs and what you can consistently shoot and conceal well. Statistically, it's not likely that you'll ever need to use your gun. If you do, it's most likely going to be within bad breath range and result in 2-3 shots fired. But you know how statistics work. They tend to show the most usual circumstances and don't cover every potential situation.
To get back to the question at hand, I carry a compact, single-stack semi-auto most often; usually a Shield in 9mm or .45 ACP and always with at least one reload. At times, i will carry either my M&P 340 or one of my 640's with Buffalo Bore 158 gr. .38+P SWCLHP loads and a speed strip or speed loader. However, with the current state of affairs, there may be times when we all find that we are headed into an area or situation where the potential for an armed encounter could be greater. In those times a Shield 9mm, even with MagGuts 9 or 10 rounds may seem pretty thin in terms of security.
My response to that "bad feeling" has been to carry a M&P 2.0 9mm compact with the 3.6" barrel. It's very little bigger than the Shield with the extended magazine in height and width. It's a little wider, but not terribly and it has a 15+1 capacity. It conceals nicely IWB and helps to restore that sense of security when conditions or circumstances are not optimal.
For me, most days I'm well served with Shield or similar (Glock 43/43X). The longer I'm retired (5 years now) the more I find it very rare that I get that feeling that the Shield or J-frame might not be enough.
Most of these years in two departments, I was a firearms instructor, which gave me a lot of time and opportunity to work with my carry guns. I felt complete confidence in the J-frames, as well as the compact S/A S&Ws and compact Glocks. Regardless, I always carried reloads; strips or speed loaders for the J's and at least one magazine for the S/A's.
The point in my age and nostalgia-driven ramble, is that either will serve you well, depending on your needs and what you can consistently shoot and conceal well. Statistically, it's not likely that you'll ever need to use your gun. If you do, it's most likely going to be within bad breath range and result in 2-3 shots fired. But you know how statistics work. They tend to show the most usual circumstances and don't cover every potential situation.
To get back to the question at hand, I carry a compact, single-stack semi-auto most often; usually a Shield in 9mm or .45 ACP and always with at least one reload. At times, i will carry either my M&P 340 or one of my 640's with Buffalo Bore 158 gr. .38+P SWCLHP loads and a speed strip or speed loader. However, with the current state of affairs, there may be times when we all find that we are headed into an area or situation where the potential for an armed encounter could be greater. In those times a Shield 9mm, even with MagGuts 9 or 10 rounds may seem pretty thin in terms of security.
My response to that "bad feeling" has been to carry a M&P 2.0 9mm compact with the 3.6" barrel. It's very little bigger than the Shield with the extended magazine in height and width. It's a little wider, but not terribly and it has a 15+1 capacity. It conceals nicely IWB and helps to restore that sense of security when conditions or circumstances are not optimal.
For me, most days I'm well served with Shield or similar (Glock 43/43X). The longer I'm retired (5 years now) the more I find it very rare that I get that feeling that the Shield or J-frame might not be enough.
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Shield vs J Frame
I chose the Shield. That was tough, and could have gone either way. I love J frames. I love them. However, I just bought a Shield myself. So I voted for the Shield.
The reality is however, you can't go wrong either way.
I chose the Shield. That was tough, and could have gone either way. I love J frames. I love them. However, I just bought a Shield myself. So I voted for the Shield.
The reality is however, you can't go wrong either way.
rednichols
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Because I live in neither USA nor NZ I don't have such concerns; but if I did I'd want sight radius so I didn't have to stand on top of the badguy to accomplish something. As true as it is that most gunfights happen right up close, I'd want to shoot back from behind a barricade. And an M60 would be one of my last choices; as would lots of magazine capacity. I'd want a big, slow bullet in a pistol I could fire accurately from some kind of distance beyond the classic 7 yards.
My 2c worth, I'm not a gunfighter. I didn't vote in the poll because I wouldn't choose either one. Once owned a target-sighted Swenson 1911 with 8 round mags in 45 and I'd be mighty happy to have it and the spares with me if the time came. Carried IWB at 4:00 back in the day when I weighed less than 150#.
Few know that Elmer Keith acknowledged, he learned to shoot because he was small and had a crippled hand; feeling he was not match for the brute strength of strong men. I'd think of a 1911 as being on that same principle vs a AR assuming the shooter didn't know I was there.
My 2c worth, I'm not a gunfighter. I didn't vote in the poll because I wouldn't choose either one. Once owned a target-sighted Swenson 1911 with 8 round mags in 45 and I'd be mighty happy to have it and the spares with me if the time came. Carried IWB at 4:00 back in the day when I weighed less than 150#.
Few know that Elmer Keith acknowledged, he learned to shoot because he was small and had a crippled hand; feeling he was not match for the brute strength of strong men. I'd think of a 1911 as being on that same principle vs a AR assuming the shooter didn't know I was there.
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You don't have to drive two hours to find a mentally challenged individual... it can happen anywhere but the odds of being in the middle of such a situation are astronomical. Be aware and prepared.
Telecaster
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You might find the all-steel 640 to be easier to hit with, and the reliability and heavier trigger to be more comforting than a Shield.
Carry what comforts you.
Carry what comforts you.
fredj338
Member
I think when guys say pocket carry it needs a clarification, pants or jacket.just sayin.
Understood, but for me the Shield is just too heavy for pocket carry in a jacket or trousers. I also prefer to be able to shoot from a jacket pocket if necessary and the J is still a better choice.
Nothing particularly wrong with selecting the optimal choice based upon personal experience and anticipated need.
Experiential knowledge still deserves respect when it comes to different folks making their own informed decisions regarding what they believe will best serve their own purpose, in the circumstances they've learned to expect or reasonably anticipate.
There's seemingly no shortage of folks who still seem to think of whatever weapon/caliber choice they may make as more or less being the equivalent of a talisman or charm against harm.
Like when even intelligent folks might carry a rabbit's foot or plastic-encased 4-leaf clover on their key chain, or in their pocket. It made them feel they might have a bit of luck on their side.
While there are still some anticipated circumstances (other than a whim
) that influence me to belt on one of my larger 9, .40 or .45 pistols, or even one of large revolvers, most of the time I'm not expecting that sort of "trouble" to come find me. I'm no longer being sent (or planning caseload activity) that takes me into suspected or known dangerous situations every 15 or 30 minutes, or hourly, for a whole day or night shift. Trouble is going to have to work to come find me, and I've acquired a little bit of experience in recognizing the sort of situations where that might have a better chance of occurring.
If I'm wrong? Hey, it could happen, right?
Well, that's why I invested so much time in practicing to effectively run my snub revolvers, to the extent humanly possible, in the same sort of conditions I practiced and trained for with my larger personally-owned and duty weapons.
We learn to work with what we have,m and I spent my own fair share of years having to belt on and spend 8-18hrs a day with a "full-size fighting handgun" (slight homage to an older expression from the late 60's.
).I hardly ever gainsay the choice of someone else when it comes to off-duty and retired cop or private person CCW choices.
Now, if I do happen to observe them using it on a training or practice range, and they don't seem capable of effectively using whatever it is they've chosen, and they ask me for an opinion? Hell, I might just tell them.
Bottom line, though, is that they're adults and fully capable of being responsible for living or dying by their own choices. Not really my business whether or not they decide to "choose wisely" or "choose poorly". Sometimes we can choose and do everything right and still find events stacked against us. Life in the real world.
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Nothing particularly wrong with selecting the optimal choice based upon personal experience and anticipated need.
Experiential knowledge still deserves respect when it comes to different folks making their own informed decisions regarding what they believe will best serve their own purpose, in the circumstances they've learned to expect or reasonably anticipate.
There's seemingly no shortage of folks who still seem to think of whatever weapon/caliber choice they may make as more or less being the equivalent of a talisman or charm against harm.
Like when even intelligent folks might carry a rabbit's foot or plastic-encased 4-leaf clover on their key chain, or in their pocket. It made them feel they might have a bit of luck on their side.
While there are still some anticipated circumstances (other than a whim
I'm no longer being sent (or planning caseload activity) that takes me into suspected or known dangerous situations every 15 or 30 minutes, or hourly, for a whole day or night shift. Trouble is going to have to work to come find me, and I've acquired a little bit of experience in recognizing the sort of situations where that might have a better chance of occurring.
If I'm wrong? Hey, it could happen, right?
Well, that's why I invested so much time in practicing to effectively run my snub revolvers, to the extent humanly possible, in the same sort of conditions I practiced and trained for with my larger personally-owned and duty weapons.
We learn to work with what we have,m and I spent my own fair share of years having to belt on and spend 8-18hrs a day with a "full-size fighting handgun" (slight homage to an older expression from the late 60's.
I hardly ever gainsay the choice of someone else when it comes to off-duty and retired cop or private person CCW choices.
Now, if I do happen to observe them using it on a training or practice range, and they don't seem capable of effectively using whatever it is they've chosen, and they ask me for an opinion? Hell, I might just tell them.
Bottom line, though, is that they're adults and fully capable of being responsible for living or dying by their own choices. Not really my business whether or not they decide to "choose wisely" or "choose poorly". Sometimes we can choose and do everything right and still find events stacked against us. Life in the real world.
Agree. My choices in retirement are based on the three deadly force encounters I had w/my issued thirty-eight. We transitioned to the Glock for my last 20 years, but I was in management by then and street time was limited by daily admin nonsense.
Broke Hoss
Member
Are you sure you get "better accuracy" with the Shield? I can still shoot my Mdl 60 just as, if not more, accurate than the M&P9c I carry most of the time off duty.
I went through 2 off duty pistol courses with my Mdl 60. Even the instructors kidded me about the up to 8 second reloads (usually speedloader, but speed strips too). But they were just impressed with the ability to put a small group of holes in the target in a short amount of time.
Nothing wrong with staying with the wheel gun.
I went through 2 off duty pistol courses with my Mdl 60. Even the instructors kidded me about the up to 8 second reloads (usually speedloader, but speed strips too). But they were just impressed with the ability to put a small group of holes in the target in a short amount of time.
Nothing wrong with staying with the wheel gun.
Doug M.
Member
I can see that with a Gen 1 M&P 9; the accuracy problems with those are well documented. I find the pro J frame results amazing, putting aside the mass shooting events are very rare in the US. At least with regard t my 4" Shield w/RDS, the results are not even close.
max503
Member
The likelihood of me needing a whole lot of bullets is remote. But that's only one reason I carry revolvers.
The crime I read about around here leads me to believe 5 shots would be more than enough if needed.
The gun control people want us to believe that mass shootings are common and an everyday threat which they aren't.
The crime I read about around here leads me to believe 5 shots would be more than enough if needed.
The gun control people want us to believe that mass shootings are common and an everyday threat which they aren't.
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Whitwabit
US Veteran
Where I live I'm not as worried about a mass shooter as I am the 3 or 4 perps doing robberies or car jackings .. or being at the wrong place during a drive by shooting with multiple perps shooting .. there have been 18 homicides in the town just 6 miles away with the last one shot spotter recorded 10 shots .. multiple caliber's of shell casings were recovered at the scene of the shooting .. so multiple shooters ..
That's why I carry a Beretta PX4 Sub Compact with 12 +1 with a spare mag .. and not one of my 6 shot revolvers !!
If you live in a sleepy Mayberry like town a revolver may be more then enough but many of us live in or work around areas where less the desirable individuals may be encountered !! And we feel much safer with a few more rounds available to us !!
That's why I carry a Beretta PX4 Sub Compact with 12 +1 with a spare mag .. and not one of my 6 shot revolvers !!
If you live in a sleepy Mayberry like town a revolver may be more then enough but many of us live in or work around areas where less the desirable individuals may be encountered !! And we feel much safer with a few more rounds available to us !!
Interesting that two individuals separated by less than 100 miles have such different perspectives - especially when the person with the "a revolver is enough" belief is the one living on the edge of what has recently been branded as one of the most dangerous big cities in the country (St. Louis - my original home town).
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Whitwabit
US Veteran
I've also found that interesting .. Just a few miles (25-30)continuing away from the big city from me .. crime is almost non existent .. and most would feel comfortable with a revolver .. Seems Perps don't travel far from their home base unless they're running from the police or another gang ..
In run down areas of a larger city gangs proliferate where smaller towns have little to no areas like that ..
It comes down to where you live and the crime's and crime rates in your area .. If you live where gang members frequent your much more likely to encounter one or more in your daily life ..
badge 851
US Veteran
badge 851
US Veteran
Me too!!!!!
