I know that front pocket carry has been practiced by many learned combat/defense experts for years, but there's one concern that I've never seen addressed - when you are seated, your gun is pointed straight at any one seated in front of you, such as at a table. I know in any other situation, I would never point a firearm at anyone anytime, unless defending myself. How do you rationalize this? I would really like to feel safe pocket carrying my j-frame, but this makes me very hesitant. Any constructive comments would be appreciated!
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j-frame pocket carry safety concern
- Thread starter jerryboy
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That is an interesting point jerryboy. I have never heard of a j-frame
accidentally (or negligently) going off in a pocket, but as the man said:
"If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong."
In the thread: Carry a J Frame IWB we see quite a few members do
pocket carry. But a few, including me, do not believe it is a great
idea, for reasons other than the one you bring up. But I will add your
reason to the list of why I don't care for pocket carry.
Constructive comment? If you don't feel safe pocket carrying your
j-frame, just don't do it. Try IWB or OWB instead.
accidentally (or negligently) going off in a pocket, but as the man said:
"If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong."
In the thread: Carry a J Frame IWB we see quite a few members do
pocket carry. But a few, including me, do not believe it is a great
idea, for reasons other than the one you bring up. But I will add your
reason to the list of why I don't care for pocket carry.
Constructive comment? If you don't feel safe pocket carrying your
j-frame, just don't do it. Try IWB or OWB instead.
It's a simple fact of life that you're going to inevitably break the muzzle-crossing rule anytime you carry, no matter what carry style you choose.
That's where smart holster design comes in! Check out this classic thumbreak 1911 holster, which was literally the first Google result:
Now, if you're not familiar with 1911-pattern pistols, they (mostly) have very light single-action triggers, usually with no travel.
They've also got two safety mechanisms. The first is a manual thumb-operated safety located on the side of the frame, which blocks movement of the sear/hammer arrangement (and locks the slide closed when activated). The other is a grip-activated safety located at the backstrap, which blocks the trigger bow from moving backwards and pushing on the sear (by way of the disconnector) until it's deactivated.
Now, both of these safeties can fail relatively easy in carry conditions. The grip safety (which doesn't block the hammer/sear anyway) is easy to accidentally deactivate. And the thumb safety gets deactivated all the time, on holstering, by movement, etc.
But the thumb-break holster guards against all of that. In Condition One carry (round chambered, hammer cocked, thumb safety activated) the leather band that snaps around the gun to secure it also blocks hammer from striking the firing pin. In other words, every mechanical safety on the gun, plus the hammer and sear, can fail simultaneously, and the holster itself will prevent the gun from discharging.
But rather ingeniously, if you need the gun in a hurry, simply grip and pull hard enough, and the snap pops right off (assuming your belt actually fits).
Now let's take a a look at a pocket holster for an S&W J-frame:
In contrast to the 1911, the J-frame has no safety devices. All it's got is a heavy double-action-only trigger with a long pull. The hammer rests against the firing pin (on later models with frame-mounted pins), on a loaded chamber. And since the hammer is internal, there's no way to secure it from the outside.
That's where the pocket holster comes in. By completely covering the triggerguard with firm leather, Kydex, or other sufficiently stiff material, there's no way to actually work the trigger.
The only time you can actually work an object, like an errant pen or a drawstring, into the triggerguard with enough force to fire the gun, is on holstering. That's why the typical practice for pocket carry is to first insert the gun into the holster, and then insert the holster into the pocket. And that's also why smart practice with any gun is to holster slowly.
Don't think of the gun alone. The holster itself is a safety device, which is another good reason not to cheap out on one. Good holsters are great, inexpensive holsters are fine, and cheap holsters get you a hole in the foot.
I also find it mildly interesting to study how different carry options work with different handguns. It's a lot harder to distrust something when you don't understand how it works.
And it goes without saying that if you're just dropping your revolver in your pocket, you're doing it wrong.
That's where smart holster design comes in! Check out this classic thumbreak 1911 holster, which was literally the first Google result:
Now, if you're not familiar with 1911-pattern pistols, they (mostly) have very light single-action triggers, usually with no travel.
They've also got two safety mechanisms. The first is a manual thumb-operated safety located on the side of the frame, which blocks movement of the sear/hammer arrangement (and locks the slide closed when activated). The other is a grip-activated safety located at the backstrap, which blocks the trigger bow from moving backwards and pushing on the sear (by way of the disconnector) until it's deactivated.
Now, both of these safeties can fail relatively easy in carry conditions. The grip safety (which doesn't block the hammer/sear anyway) is easy to accidentally deactivate. And the thumb safety gets deactivated all the time, on holstering, by movement, etc.
But the thumb-break holster guards against all of that. In Condition One carry (round chambered, hammer cocked, thumb safety activated) the leather band that snaps around the gun to secure it also blocks hammer from striking the firing pin. In other words, every mechanical safety on the gun, plus the hammer and sear, can fail simultaneously, and the holster itself will prevent the gun from discharging.
But rather ingeniously, if you need the gun in a hurry, simply grip and pull hard enough, and the snap pops right off (assuming your belt actually fits).
Now let's take a a look at a pocket holster for an S&W J-frame:
In contrast to the 1911, the J-frame has no safety devices. All it's got is a heavy double-action-only trigger with a long pull. The hammer rests against the firing pin (on later models with frame-mounted pins), on a loaded chamber. And since the hammer is internal, there's no way to secure it from the outside.
That's where the pocket holster comes in. By completely covering the triggerguard with firm leather, Kydex, or other sufficiently stiff material, there's no way to actually work the trigger.
The only time you can actually work an object, like an errant pen or a drawstring, into the triggerguard with enough force to fire the gun, is on holstering. That's why the typical practice for pocket carry is to first insert the gun into the holster, and then insert the holster into the pocket. And that's also why smart practice with any gun is to holster slowly.
Don't think of the gun alone. The holster itself is a safety device, which is another good reason not to cheap out on one. Good holsters are great, inexpensive holsters are fine, and cheap holsters get you a hole in the foot.
I also find it mildly interesting to study how different carry options work with different handguns. It's a lot harder to distrust something when you don't understand how it works.
And it goes without saying that if you're just dropping your revolver in your pocket, you're doing it wrong.
Hi, the J frame does have internal safety devices - like all modern S&W revolvers do. The hammer does not rest against the FP, it is blocked by the rebound side. The hammer rests on the rebound slide unless the trigger is pulled back. (the centennials only lack the hammer block because they have no way of manually manipulating the hammer)
Here is a video showing the internal safety devices:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ixC34PaKk[/ame]
fatcat3
Member
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again what are you all doing in your pocket that you dont feel safe with a long double action 5-8 lbs trigger pull. the only thing in your pocket with the gun is a holster. having a loaded firearm has some risk involved. minimize those risk as best as you can and dont worry about the rest. nothing man made is perfect no mater what the media, D.N.C. and the rest of the moon bats tell ya. im more concerned about being run over by some bozo staying "connected" via cell phone than an A.D. from a revolver in even the cheapest holster. sorry ill get for my soapbox now
bearfoot
US Veteran
a friend carries in pocket w/ out a holster. 2 different rev. we were at the range several weeks ago, he knows my thoughts on pocket carry, w/out a holster. he explained to me he always tucks his shirt in, so he won't/ can't wear a holster, don't know why he brought the subject up. w/ rev. in pocket, asked him he shoot the 3 yd. target in 3 seconds, he is aware or the 21 ft. theory, related to me he could if he had to. subject dropped. i'm getting better in my elder years, just smiled and went back to enjoying my time on the range and w/ a friend. my 3 seconds, each should do what they are comfortable with, training/ shooting knowledge.
Double-O-Dave
US Veteran
Hi Jerryboy:
Welcome to the Forum.
Over the years, I've pocket carried and/or belt carried a number of different handguns including SA/DA revolvers, DAO revolvers, and DAO, as well as DA/SA semiautomatic pistols. I always use some type of holster. Through it all, I've never had a handgun fire without my action of putting my finger on the trigger and pressing the trigger.
I'm not trying to be a wise guy, my point is that a properly functioning handgun will not discharge unless the trigger is deliberately pulled.
My current EDC (Every Day Carry) consists of a pair of J-frame revolvers - a Model 38-0 and a Model 638-1. Both wear Crimson Trace LG-405 laser grips, and I carry them in DeSantis Nemesis pocket holsters. Throughout a day of carry, I know the muzzles of both revolvers will at some time point at others, as well as myself. I'm okay with this as I know they will be safe until the trigger is intentionally or unintentionally pressed. That's one reason to always use a properly fitting holster, and to only have the handgun and holster in the pocket - no other items are allowed.
Good luck,
Dave
Welcome to the Forum.
Over the years, I've pocket carried and/or belt carried a number of different handguns including SA/DA revolvers, DAO revolvers, and DAO, as well as DA/SA semiautomatic pistols. I always use some type of holster. Through it all, I've never had a handgun fire without my action of putting my finger on the trigger and pressing the trigger.
I'm not trying to be a wise guy, my point is that a properly functioning handgun will not discharge unless the trigger is deliberately pulled.
My current EDC (Every Day Carry) consists of a pair of J-frame revolvers - a Model 38-0 and a Model 638-1. Both wear Crimson Trace LG-405 laser grips, and I carry them in DeSantis Nemesis pocket holsters. Throughout a day of carry, I know the muzzles of both revolvers will at some time point at others, as well as myself. I'm okay with this as I know they will be safe until the trigger is intentionally or unintentionally pressed. That's one reason to always use a properly fitting holster, and to only have the handgun and holster in the pocket - no other items are allowed.
Good luck,
Dave
Speaking in general on carrying. Think about it, most any place you carry on your person depending on how you move or position yourself you.---
Are pointing a gun at some part of your body. Assuming it does go off (highly unlikely) it will at least put a small canal in something of yours. An upside down holster is a good example of more than a "canal" being dug, that one will put an "open pit mine" in your shoulder!
Same deal sort of for other people in the area, depending on what you are doing you might be pointing at someone. A Miami Vice type holster with the gun pointing straight back is a well-known “covering” someone at most all times holster!
As for me I never lost any sleep over the above scenarios. I realize a gun can be/is a dangerous item and treat it accordingly but heck I got to carry my weapon somewhere.
I’m now getting ready to go out and my new Ruger LCR.38 will be in my right front pocket. At least for today its replacing my .380 BG that has occupied that pocket for close to 3 years. I feel adequately armed and not concerned about an A.D.
Are pointing a gun at some part of your body. Assuming it does go off (highly unlikely) it will at least put a small canal in something of yours. An upside down holster is a good example of more than a "canal" being dug, that one will put an "open pit mine" in your shoulder!
Same deal sort of for other people in the area, depending on what you are doing you might be pointing at someone. A Miami Vice type holster with the gun pointing straight back is a well-known “covering” someone at most all times holster!
As for me I never lost any sleep over the above scenarios. I realize a gun can be/is a dangerous item and treat it accordingly but heck I got to carry my weapon somewhere.
I’m now getting ready to go out and my new Ruger LCR.38 will be in my right front pocket. At least for today its replacing my .380 BG that has occupied that pocket for close to 3 years. I feel adequately armed and not concerned about an A.D.
FlaRon
Member
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
It's a good line of reasoning, and shows a thoughtful respect of your responsibility as a gun owner.
I'd agree about it being an increased and unnecessary risk to conceal an unsecured, loaded gun anywhere. But once you've seated your firearm in a proper holster that covers the trigger, then it's not going to go off.
I'd agree about it being an increased and unnecessary risk to conceal an unsecured, loaded gun anywhere. But once you've seated your firearm in a proper holster that covers the trigger, then it's not going to go off.
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Kid44
Member
Just don't pull the trigger while the gun is in your pocket. Your hand shouldn't be on your gun unless you are going to use it anyway.
Average double-action trigger pull weight on a J-Frame is 12 lbs and long.
Pocket carrying a DAO model in a quality pocket holster and the risks of an unintentional discharge while in the pocket is astronomically low. I can't even imagine a reasonably likely or realistic scenario where it could actually happen.
Pocket carrying a DAO model in a quality pocket holster and the risks of an unintentional discharge while in the pocket is astronomically low. I can't even imagine a reasonably likely or realistic scenario where it could actually happen.
n9znd
Member
I was always told that a J-frame with a hammer will not shoot through the pocket, so I am good !!!!!
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Blackshirt
Member
When I was a firearms instructor, we taught students that in a proper holster or turned in at the armory were the only times a sidearm were safe. This applies to pocket carry as well as other techniques. Find a well-fitted holster and use it whenever you feel you should pocket your piece...
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
As others have pointed out, if you carry a typical candidate for pocket carry like a DAO J-frame, a Centennial or one of its descendants, the actual likelyhood of any danger from the muzzle pointing at someone from inside your pocket is remote. If I wanted to worry about people's carrying habits, cocked-and-locked 1911s in horizontal shoulder holsters would worry me a lot more (but they don't either).
That said, there is nothing wrong with being just generally ill at ease with the concept of having your gun pointing at someone you're having lunch with, regardless of practical considerations. I wouldn't like it either. I don't pocket carry my J-frames for other reasons, namely because I find it awkward, and most importantly, darn uncomfortable compared to a nice belt slide or IWB holster. But I don't mind that the muzzle in my holsters is pointed downward most of the time. I don't point guns, even unloaded ones, at people unnecessarily.
That said, there is nothing wrong with being just generally ill at ease with the concept of having your gun pointing at someone you're having lunch with, regardless of practical considerations. I wouldn't like it either. I don't pocket carry my J-frames for other reasons, namely because I find it awkward, and most importantly, darn uncomfortable compared to a nice belt slide or IWB holster. But I don't mind that the muzzle in my holsters is pointed downward most of the time. I don't point guns, even unloaded ones, at people unnecessarily.
Hi, I'm clearly referring to mechanical safeties, both automatic and manual, and not safety features. I also don't care where precisely the hammer rests, as it doesn't matter for the sake of the discussion. If I'd wanted to be precise, I could have spent a paragraph or two talking about how the disconnector works with the sear and trigger bow on a 1911, or how the half-cock notch works to prevent discharge in the event of the primary hammer hooks failing.
But I just don't care.
A gun that is not being handled is safe, whether it's in a pocket, a holster, or a display case, loaded or not, and it doesn't matter where it's pointed because it isn't going to go off by itself. This concern over where a holstered gun is pointing is ridiculous. Do you low crawl past the displays in your favorite gun store because the handguns in the case are facing outward? What about when you take your gun off when you get home and lay it on the table or counter - do you warn everyone in the house not to walk past the muzzle? I'm guessing that you don't because that would be silly, just like fretting over a pistol in a horizontal shoulder holster pointing behind you, or worrying that a handgun in a regular belt holster pointing at the floor might be pointing "at" someone on the floor below you. These are simple machines, incapable of action without someone to activate them. You have nothing to fear from a holstered handgun, no matter how or where it's worn or where it's pointed.
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Three words: No worries, mate.
If you're concerned about accidentally cocking a hammer (which still won't fire the gun), get one of the Centennial series, a 642, 442, 640, etc. Put it in a good pocket holster.
Danger is zero.
If you're concerned about accidentally cocking a hammer (which still won't fire the gun), get one of the Centennial series, a 642, 442, 640, etc. Put it in a good pocket holster.
Danger is zero.
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