James Webley London shotgun

[johngross]

I'm trying to figure an approximate manufacture date on a Webley marked percussion shotgun. I'm not familiar with the timeline of James Webley, Webley & Scott, Webley & Sons, etc.

So for those of you knowledgeable on British makers, can you date (approximately) when the James Webley London marking was used?

The one pictured below is not the exact same shotgun I am looking at, but the style and lock plate marking are the same.

Thank you.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Google says they started in 1834.

Ivan

 

[johngross]

Google says they started in 1834.

1834 is when James entered the picture....along with his brother Philip. So was the company known as James Webley, or Jimmy and Phil?

Then is 1860 two sons entered the business, Thomas and Henry. So now was it James Webley? Jimmy and Phil? Jimmy, Phil, Tom & Henry? Or Webley & Sons?

It's like Remington (along with many other makers), the name changed over the years and so too the marking on the gun. Remington was originally known as Remington's, then Remington & Sons, and then Remington Arms Company (and I think eventually as Remington - UMC).

 

[2152hq]

Here you can read the long history of James Webley to P. Webley & Sons to Webley and Scott.

Liddle & Kaeding - San Francisco Marked Webley Bull Dog

The short story is that the company name was James Webley from the start in the early 1830's.
Brother Philip worked with James but was not named in Company 'name'.

James died in 1856
Then brother Philip took over.
Philip's 2 sons also joined the company at that time.
In 1860 they renamed the company
'P. Webley & Son'.

That was about the end of the percussion era.

There's more change later when they bought up WC Scott and others,,more name change etc.

 

[johngross]

Here you can read the long history of James Webley to P. Webley & Sons to Webley and Scott.

Thank you for the link. The owner of College Hill Arsenal (I believe Tim Prince is his name) is often very thorough in his descriptions and research.

The seller of the shotgun I'm thinking about buying says "circa 1870", but I believe it's quite a bit earlier. So with Jimmy dying in 1856 it would appear unlikely the locks were still marked James Webley.

BUT... it's possible his name on the lock is fraudulent, trying to give the impression a cheap shotgun is of better quality than it actually is.

Thanks again.

 

[2152hq]

1870 would be well into the company's 'P. Webley & Son' era I would think.

Cartridge firearms were coming to the front of the line by that time, but I'm sure they still made the Percussion arms for customers as well.

..and there is the possibility of someone simply planting the name on a gun that was never constructed by the Webley folks at all.
Some things have never changed.

If it's a true Brit shotgun,,there should be English proof marks of the period on the bbl(s).
London or Birmingham House proofs. They changed over the yrs and you can sometimes narrow down by the style and characters to an era of when the gun was proofed.

Phoney Brit proofs are a possibility as well so you keep going around in circles sometimes trying to figure out these things.
Sometimes it comes down to being able to ID the real deal from a foreign built with a famous name on it.
Same thing goes on today.