Jammed Revolver ?!? Stop Short-Stroking

[413Maxwedge]

1st off, I am no expert gunsmith. And I am new to revolvers. My only experience is 20 years with shotguns, including the past 8 as an NRA - Certified Shotgun Instructor with BSA clearances. I shoot trap and have recently gotten into revolvers.

In the past month I have purchased three S&W revolvers. A 43C (.22) for my son and wife to target practice, a 640-3 (.38/.357) for home defense and target, and a 340 M&P (.38/.357) for daily carry and target.

The 640 and 340 have both "locked up" in less than 100 shots. Once each. They just stopped firing, with the trigger, release button and cylinder freezing in place. This only happened once with each of these .38/.357 guns, but it did happen, with less than 100 shots through them.

I bought revolvers because I wanted my gun(s) to be simple and reliable. I work in the worst parts of the city, opening and closing the gates before anyone else gets there. I've seen my guys get car-jacked and mugged for wallet/phone.

I'm not giving my truck/wallet/keys to some 15yo kid with a plastic gun. I'm not dying without a fight either.

So why are my new $800 "simple and reliable" guns jamming???
I looked all over Google, and found all kinda issues with worn-out guns. Loose ejector rods. Broken firing pins. Broken springs. loose primers in reloaded ammo. Etc..

But my guns aren't old or worn-out. They're brand freaking new with new, quality ammo.. Then I found it....

Short stroking. I think I've been firing too fast (practicing a self defense 3-shot ) and jamming up the actions. The pins are not damaged. The ejector rods are not loose. Everything is clean and operational. So what else could it be?

Comments welcome.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Short stroking is where you don't let the trigger reset all the way forward. Then it won't pull back. If you then let it go all the way forward, it resets and you're back in operation. This is only a momentary thing and does not affect the opening of the cylinder unless you are still holding the trigger in the locked up position.

The only thing I can think of with this information is that maybe you're shooting a heavy enough load that a bullet sometimes creeps forward from recoil and comes out the front of the cylinder a little bit, jamming against the side of the barrel extension.

 

[Old cop]

I've been shooting revolvers since 1968 and never had this happen to me or even heard of it. Someone said something about a bullet jumping crimp and that's about the only thing I can see might cause your problem.

 

[413Maxwedge]

Hmm, alright then I'm stumped again. After 30 seconds of messing with it they will "break loose" and be fine again, and fire the rest of the rounds. But while it's happening the trigger, cylinder and release button are all frozen in place. The 640-3 did it while dry-firing A-zoom snap caps, and the 340 did it at the range with Winchester DEFENSE .38+P, then fired the remaining rounds.

I don't think any of the bullets came loose in the shells. Something in the action is jamming from simply using it, even with snap caps.

 

[s&wchad]

I'd take them apart and give the internals a good cleaning and light lubrication. If you're not comfortable doing that, pull the grips, spray action cleaner inside, blow the excess out with an air hose and follow up with a light spray of oil.

 

[scooter123]

1) Azoom Snap caps do have a lifespan, for the 38 Special variant it's about 250 strikes. What will happen is the rim will seperate and the body of the Snap cap will get thrown into the forcing cone which will jam the revolver up solid. Note a push with a simple wooden pencil will put that snap cap back into the cylinder at which point you can work the cylinder open. Note, that rim can present an extra bit of metal and make opening the cylinder a bit of a challenge.

2) S&W really needs to spend a thin dime and install a trigger top rod in the cylinder rebound block in all of their revolvers. Because then the trigger toggle gets over stroked it will cause a jam as described when the trigger is manipulated quickly. I have a model 36 that was made in 1962 that did this every single time I stroked the trigger quickly in Double action. To free it up wiggling the trigger front/back and up/down with the muzzle pointed downrange would work it free. Yeah, not something comfortable to do with loads in the cylinder. Be VERY CAREFUL of hand placement while doing this. The solution for this is a bit of drill bit shank of the correct size to slide into the Rebound Spring than can provide a trigger stop that prevents over stroking the trigger. Take note this will have to be fitted to the action and and you will want that stop rod length needs to be at the point where it stops the trigger just after the Single Action break point, BTW this is in the range of 0.002 to 0.003 inches after the trigger clears the SA notch. I will also note that the JM 625 featured a trigger stop rod from the Factory and I suspect that is due to Jerry Miculek's input on this model.

 

[ken158]

Have any "trigger jobs" been done to these revolvers? I find it very interesting that you have two revolvers that cause you problems when most have never experienced this phenomenon.

 

[alwslate]

If your revolvers don't lock up when firing them double action at a slower rate, making sure that you don't short stroke them you have solved your problem. You can make just about any mechanical device fail if you try hard enough.

 

[Muley Gil]

1) Azoom Snap caps do have a lifespan, for the 38 Special variant it's about 250 strikes. What will happen is the rim will seperate and the body of the Snap cap will get thrown into the forcing cone which will jam the revolver up solid. Note a push with a simple wooden pencil will put that snap cap back into the cylinder at which point you can work the cylinder open. Note, that rim can present an extra bit of metal and make opening the cylinder a bit of a challenge.

2) S&W really needs to spend a thin dime and install a trigger top rod in the cylinder rebound block in all of their revolvers. Because then the trigger toggle gets over stroked it will cause a jam as described when the trigger is manipulated quickly. I have a model 36 that was made in 1962 that did this every single time I stroked the trigger quickly in Double action. To free it up wiggling the trigger front/back and up/down with the muzzle pointed downrange would work it free. Yeah, not something comfortable to do with loads in the cylinder. Be VERY CAREFUL of hand placement while doing this. The solution for this is a bit of drill bit shank of the correct size to slide into the Rebound Spring than can provide a trigger stop that prevents over stroking the trigger. Take note this will have to be fitted to the action and and you will want that stop rod length needs to be at the point where it stops the trigger just after the Single Action break point, BTW this is in the range of 0.002 to 0.003 inches after the trigger clears the SA notch. I will also note that the JM 625 featured a trigger stop rod from the Factory and I suspect that is due to Jerry Miculek's input on this model.

Once upon a time, most N frame revolvers came with trigger stop rods installed at the factory.

 

[413Maxwedge]

Have any "trigger jobs" been done to these revolvers? I find it very interesting that you have two revolvers that cause you problems when most have never experienced this phenomenon.

No, all of the action parts are original.

 

[413Maxwedge]

If your revolvers don't lock up when firing them double action at a slower rate, making sure that you don't short stroke them you have solved your problem. You can make just about any mechanical device fail if you try hard enough.

Yes I agree. I think I just need to take my time, but that sucks. I'll open them up for a clean and lube.

 

[RetCapt]

I don't know what the problem is, but I too have experienced it.

This happened to me twice while going through the two week FBI range officer school. Our issue revolvers were Smith 66s, which in general were very problematic for us. I had never experienced this before, so I doubted it was me.

I was shooting in PPC matches during this time, using my PPC revolver built up on a Ruger Six series. I shot the entire course double action. Never in all that time did I experience such a stoppage. But I was always aware of what short-stroking could do, so I made sure to never do it.

When it happened to the first 66, I made sure I had not short stroked, but nothing reset and freed up the revolver. Somehow we did get it to work, I think by opening the cylinder and then trying it again. It worked, but I no longer trusted it. I turned it in checked out another 66. A few hundred rounds in and the same thing occurred.

By the time I completed the course I was on my third 66.

I don't know what the armorers found, but no one ever got back to me and suggested pilot error.

Years passed. In the interim we had switched to the 686s, which eliminated the various problems we had with the 66s. To this day, I still hold that the L frame is Smith & Wesson's best .357 magnum revolver.

Still more years passed and we were transitioning from revolvers to semi-autos, in this instance the full size .40 cal Glock (can't remember the model #). One of the features of the Glock is that it can reset without fully releasing the trigger. So the range officers were pushing this. With all my DA revolver experience I was still fully releasing the trigger, just as I would with a revolver. So three young ROs were with me when I was shooting, really getting on me for my dinosaurian tactics. All this time I was shooting the Glock, chewing out the X ring in well within specified times. Inevitably I lost my patience. So I issued a challenge: Pick out your best RO shot. We would then shoot the entire course under time, side by side. If the RO outscored me, I would do whatever it took short stroking to just reset the trigger. If I was top gun, this pressure to short stroke (as it appeared to me) would end. I won decisively and the ROs kept their end of the bargain. I finished out the year with a 100% score, the only one in the dept to do so. I still chuckle about it recalling how three macho young ROs were going to show the antiquated Captain how to shoot. Just did not happen that way.

You can check all the usual suspects. If that does not locate and resolve the problem(s), let Smith & Wesson figure it out.

 

[kraynky]

If the guns are brand new and never "modified" by a previous owner, I suspect some sort of debris from manufacturing is causing it. Cleaning them and lubing everything lightly should fix them. This is why it's recommended to do what you're doing before counting on them to save your life "right out of the box".

It odd that you have two with problems (well, maybe not......I haven't bought a new revolver in quite a while).

With your experience with firearms, I'm certain you know not to use WD40. But somebody down the road may read this that doesn't know WD will leave a dried up mess that can cause its own problems.

Keep up posted on what you discover. Hopefully it can be corrected without a trip back to the mothership.

 

[alwslate]

You seem to be fixated on the need to fire your revolvers as fast as humanly possible for self defense. Why?

 

[Well Armed]

The fact that it's happening with two different revolvers tells me that it's most probable that the issue is with something the OP is doing wrong, the ammo, or both.

 

[Well Armed]

1st off, I am no expert gunsmith. And I am new to revolvers. My only experience is 20 years with shotguns, including the past 8 as an NRA - Certified Shotgun Instructor with BSA clearances. I shoot trap and have recently gotten into revolvers.

In the past month I have purchased three S&W revolvers. A 43C (.22) for my son and wife to target practice, a 640-3 (.38/.357) for home defense and target, and a 340 M&P (.38/.357) for daily carry and target.

The 640 and 340 have both "locked up" in less than 100 shots. Once each. They just stopped firing, with the trigger, release button and cylinder freezing in place. This only happened once with each of these .38/.357 guns, but it did happen, with less than 100 shots through them.

I bought revolvers because I wanted my gun(s) to be simple and reliable. I work in the worst parts of the city, opening and closing the gates before anyone else gets there. I've seen my guys get car-jacked and mugged for wallet/phone.

I'm not giving my truck/wallet/keys to some 15yo kid with a plastic gun. I'm not dying without a fight either.

So why the F are my new $800 "simple and reliable" guns jamming???
I looked all over Google, and found all kinda issues with worn-out guns. Loose ejector rods. Broken firing pins. Broken springs. loose primers in reloaded ammo. Etc..

But my guns aren't old or worn-out. They're brand freaking new with new, quality ammo.. Then I found it....

Short stroking. I think I've been firing too fast (practicing a self defense 3-shot ) and jamming up the actions. The pins are not damaged. The ejector rods are not loose. Everything is clean and operational. So what else could it be?

Comments welcome.

What ammo where you firing in the revolvers when the malfunctions happened?

 

[Brian Parrish]

Concur

I'd take them apart and give the internals a good cleaning and light lubrication. If you're not comfortable doing that, pull the grips, spray action cleaner inside, blow the excess out with an air hose and follow up with a light spray of oil.

I concur with this viewpoint. The trigger return springs should be able to "push" your relaxed finger back as it returns to start. Some grit in the action?

I feel that my trigger finger is separate from the other fingers, or at least I have worked at getting that separation so that when I squeeze the hand the trigger finger is unaffected. I think, please correct me, that most trainers teach you a positive forward stroke as a follow up.

When I have been practicing double taps with my 457 or 6906 then when I go back to the revolver I am tempted to short stroke it.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

 

[Ggunb]

Hot and dirty? Cylinder binding on forcing cone?

 

[413Maxwedge]

What ammo where you firing in the revolvers when the malfunctions happened?

Winchester DEFENSE .38+P (in the M&P 340) and snap-caps in the 640-3.

 

[walter o]

I have a 38/44 (empty )in my hand as i read this if i short stroke it at the right place and keep pressure on the trigger it will LOCK trigger ,hammer &cylinder & cylinder bolt.Let off the trigger and it will move slightly forward and every thing will work. It locks up just as trigger is about to reset and i stop forward motion of trigger,probably .035 from reset point.I should pull side plate to see what is binding but not tonight

 

[walter o]

Took side plate off tonight after many attempts to locked it up .AS trigger moves to near reset point just before it reaches the stoping point and reset ,the hand falls and engages the ratchet ,the trigger has NOT raised enough to be in position to release the cylinder lock .trigger locking the cylinder lock in the slot of the cylinder keeping it from rotating as the hand pushes on the rAtchet to rotATE THE CYLINDER. The trigger can't mobe back as it is jamed under the slope on the cyl.stop,cylinder lock has no place to move ,hand cant move cylinder co we are all Jammed UNTIL the trigger moves forward and upward to slip into the slot on the cylinder lock,as the lock can then drop out of the cyl. trigger moves forward ,the hand moves down and is pushed back by the window and frees up the push on the ratchet At least that is what happensMy 38/44
Hope i made some sence with this post on

 

[AzShooter]

Sounds a lot like a problem I'm having with my 4 inch 617. The cylinder will lock up when pulling the trigger and I've checked everything out that I can think of. It even prevents me from putting the cylinder back in the gun. I finally called Smith&Wesson and they told me to send the gun back in. It's covered by it's warranty and they even sent me a label for FedEx.

FedEx picked up the gun on Friday and was delivered to S&W Monday morning.

I think the crane is bent. That's the only thing left in my knowledge and I don't have the tool or experience to fix it. We will see what they say the problem is..

 

[chief38]

Wait a minute! Many Revolver Guys here say Revolvers never jam!! "Five for sure" if I am quoting correctly. How can that be? LOL!!

YES! Revolvers CAN & DO jam! Maybe less than Auto's of the past, however the ones of today are pretty damned reliable. Poken' fun - that's all, so please don't take offense.

 

[somorris]

I don't know nearly as much about revolvers as most folks here but will offer this. I think you should talk to S&W. I have seen quite a few people here and elsewhere complaining about quality of manufacture. Most likely for several reasons, but my thinking is a lot of older timers retired during the COVID disaster, and along with the loss of experience, the demand for new firearms shot through the roof (no pun intended). I have "heard" that the service department at S&W still has some expertise.

Another option, if you know someone with a proven revolver,would be to see if they would let you shoot it to perhaps eliminate "Pilot" error.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[Protocall_Design]

On of the main causes of revolver jams is debris falling out of the chambers onto the back of the extractor when fired cases are extracted. It only takes one flake of powder or a bit of lead or carbon to hold the extractor out far enough to jam up everything. Rimfire ammo is especially dirty, but I've had plenty of centerfire ammo do it too.

A good scrubbing with an old toothbrush or wire toothbrush will usually clean it out easily, but sometimes there is a stubborn piece of something that has to be hunted down and dealt with individually. I keep that area clean and dry. These particles will often fall away, or can be blown off by mouth if no oil is present, but any oil catches all of them like glue.

This may or may not have anything to do with the OP's problem, but is relevant to this conversation.

 

[Well Armed]

Wait a minute! Many Revolver Guys here say Revolvers never jam!! "Five for sure" if I am quoting correctly. How can that be? LOL!!

YES! Revolvers CAN & DO jam! Maybe less than Auto's of the past, however the ones of today are pretty damned reliable. Poken' fun - that's all, so please don't take offense.

Hate to burse your bubble, but the OP's revolver did not jam out of normal use. Yes, it goes without saying that out of spec and poorly QC'd revolvers will have reliability issues. The same is true for all firearms regardless of the manufacturer and platform.

Other than that, I'd like to see a quote from who stated "revolvers do not jam." Can you quote them here? I've never seen it, but I have seen people point out, and rightfully so, that revolvers are more reliable and dependable than semiautos assuming both are within spec. Regardless of how "reliable" you think semiautos have become, as long as the can still be pushed out of battery, are limp-wrist sensitive, and rely on its ammo, extractor, recoil spring, magazine, feed ramp, proper grip, and a bunch of other moving parts that all have to work perfectly together in sync, revolvers will be more reliable than semiautos. So Yes! Revolvers are still more reliable than semiautos in the past and present. Might be an inconvenient fact for those who perfer semiautos, but it's still a fact.

Out of the dozen revolvers I've owned within a course of the last 14 years, only one had a malfunction which was with Winchester WW 357 ammo being fired out of my 17oz Ruger LCR that jump crimp. That's not a typical concern because I and most do not carry hot rounds out of our lightweight pocket sized revolvers. It's not a concern of mine with 38spc or 357 out of steel frame or heavier revolvers.

With that said, I lost count of how many times I had a user induced malfunction (riding slide, hit mag release by accident, didn't seat the mag all the way, slide was out of battery, slide not locking back, etc) or gun induced malfunction (F2F, F2E, double feeds, etc) with semiautos. I've also have had a live round stuck in the chamber which would not allow me to pull the slide to the rear. It took 2 range officers, a mallet, a brass rod, and 10-15 minutes to fix it. I've also had the extractor slip over the rim leaving the casing wedged into the chamber. I had to borrow a brass rod to knock the casing out of the barrel.

 

[walter o]

To aDD TO THIS DISCUSSION THE 38/44THAT I CAN MAKE jam IS NEAR 100 YEARS OLD WHO KNOWS HOW HARD IT WAS USED .i AM 86 AND I JAM UP AT TIMES ALSO.i THINK THAT MOST AUTOS THAT AGE MIGHT NEED SOME HELP TO FUNCTION wITH THE hd38/44 ALL I NEED TO DO IS LET OFF THE TRIGGER AND IT FIXES ITS SELF. kNOWN AS SHORT STROKING
Probably install a heavier trigger return spring to push the trigger aginst my finger

 

[chief38]

Hate to burse your bubble, but the OP's revolver did not jam out of normal use. Yes, it goes without saying that out of spec and poorly QC'd revolvers will have reliability issues. The same is true for all firearms regardless of the manufacturer and platform.

Other than that, I'd like to see a quote from who stated "revolvers do not jam." Can you quote them here? I've never seen it, but I have seen people point out, and rightfully so, that revolvers are more reliable and dependable than semiautos assuming both are within spec. Regardless of how "reliable" you think semiautos have become, as long as the can still be pushed out of battery, are limp-wrist sensitive, and rely on its ammo, extractor, recoil spring, magazine, feed ramp, proper grip, and a bunch of other moving parts that all have to work perfectly together in sync, revolvers will be more reliable than semiautos. So Yes! Revolvers are still more reliable than semiautos in the past and present. Might be an inconvenient fact for those who perfer semiautos, but it's still a fact.

Out of the dozen revolvers I've owned within a course of the last 14 years, only one had a malfunction which was with Winchester WW 357 ammo being fired out of my 17oz Ruger LCR that jump crimp. That's not a typical concern because I and most do not carry hot rounds out of our lightweight pocket sized revolvers. It's not a concern of mine with 38spc or 357 out of steel frame or heavier revolvers.

With that said, I lost count of how many times I had a user induced malfunction (riding slide, hit mag release by accident, didn't seat the mag all the way, slide was out of battery, slide not locking back, etc) or gun induced malfunction (F2F, F2E, double feeds, etc) with semiautos. I've also have had a live round stuck in the chamber which would not allow me to pull the slide to the rear. It took 2 range officers, a mallet, a brass rod, and 10-15 minutes to fix it. I've also had the extractor slip over the rim leaving the casing wedged into the chamber. I had to borrow a brass rod to knock the casing out of the barrel.

Well Armed,

I was just poking fun - as stated in my post above. My post was not meant to be spark a reliability contest, and yes I too agree that percentage wise, Revolvers are probably still a little more reliable, but the gap has drastically closed enough that to me I think it makes sense to switch to a semi auto with a good track record. I have now fired over 6,000 rounds through my 4 1/2 year old Sig P365 without a hitch - I personally think that is reliable enough for EDC.

That said, there used to be a relatively common phrase (when I first starting CCW) from guys carrying revolvers..... "five or six for sure, vs maybe 10 or more". Today's semi-auto's are pretty darn reliable. As far as shoving any gun up against a bad guy's body and trying to pull the trigger when the gun is out of battery - that is not something I have or would ever do. BTW, if a bad guy grabs your revolver with his grip around the cylinder, or in front of an exposed hammer it will not fire either! Pluses and minuses of both designs!

My very first carry gun was a 2" RB M10. I bought the gun brand new in 1979 and it would routinely lock up when fired in double action mode. I was not short stroking the trigger, and S&W had tried 3 times to fix it before telling me the Frame of the gun was just not made to the correct spec's. and it was unrepairable. That was told to me face to face from Mr. Fran Longton of S&W when I personally brought the gun up to the Factory. They gave me a brand new gun with my serial number stamped on it, taken right off the line. They destroyed mine. The replacement was perfect and I had no additional troubles.

I have only owned exactly one gun that was never reliable no matter what I did to try and fix it. I had purchased it on a whim and quickly sold it a few months later after not being able to get one magazine full to fire without a malfunction. That pistol was a Bauer 25 acp copy of a Baby Browning. Don't ask why I purchased it - but that was 40+ years ago and I still can't tell you why I did!

In the world we used to live in, I was comfortable carrying a J Frame loaded with 5 +P's. In today's world, I am not. Today's Micro 9's are extremely reliable, hold more than twice as much ammo on board, have much better sights, are about 5 ounces lighter, flatter, smaller and can be reloaded in way less time. I can also shoot my Sig P365 faster and more accurately than I can my old M60-7. Last but not least, my personal opinion is that the Federal 9mm HST 124 grain performs better than the 38 special 135 grain GDHP +P as well. All in all those were my reasons for thew switch. Again, I have fired more than 6,000 assorted 9mm rounds out of it with no malfunctions and feel that is reliable enough for me. ANY GUN, revolver or pistol can have a part or spring break at anytime - I have had a few Revolvers become non function-able for a few reasons - one being a broken Trigger Stud and the other is from a broken spring on a revolver. It does happen.