Jframe sized snubby in .45acp (+P).

[arizonaguide]

Jframe sized snubby in .45acp (+P). Yes, with fullmoonclips. GREAT Secondary/BU carry or CCW.
And, I mean Jframe, not much larger. (5 shot okay!)

Think of the variety of rounds I could put in her, like .45acp HEAVY/+P LSWCHP's without worrying about feedramp issues, etc.
YET, I could still share standard ammo with a "primary" 1911/M&P/etc. .45acp.
and With a lighter load/bullet the recoil/gripsize would be okay for the wife.
To ME...the perfect defensive handgun/CCW.

Favorite weapon: Jframe snubby (fits like a glove)!!!
Favorite defensive round: .45acp (+P)
Conclusion: C'mon Smitty!!! (or at least a small Ruger would be second choice)

 

[arizonaguide]

And, NOT the 325 Nightguard...I mean a SMALL FRAME.

Okay, yes a big enough, SLIGHTLY larger (steel!) cylinder...but a SMALL (J) frame and gripsize.
One that will fit in a current Jframe holster, yet handle (5ea) .45acp (+P), 1-7/8" barrel, etc.

 

[Beemer-mark]

You could make a 3 shot J frame 45 acp. Doubt very much if you're going to make 5 rounds into the same diameter J frame cylinder.

Facts are a stubborn thing.

 

[arizonaguide]

some facts...

Same size basic frame/grip/barrel length, ONLY SLIGHTLY different Cylinder diameter, and barrel diameter are required. 5-shots EASY!

In fact, lets go ahead and do some quick math and check those "stubborn facts"...
Lets do a quick computation (shouldn't take too long) about just how much bigger the cylinder would have to be in diameter:

Each chamber would have to be approximately .45 -.357 (actually .476 -.379 at the base) bigger than the existing .357 Jframe chamber. So, each chamber ends up being approx. .097" larger diameter than the normal .357 chamber (as would the diameter of the barrel hole). Those would essentially be the changing dimensions.

All the other Jframe dimensions should be able to stay (pretty much) the same...as the pressures from the .45acp +p round I don't believe are anywhere near the .357 (existing jframe)...so the other material thicknesses should be able to stay the same...in fact resulting in a VERY strong Jframe in relation to the lower .45 pressures.

In fact the max. pressures of the .45 round are ONLY about 23,000/35,000 of the .357 (or converted to a percentage, only about 65% of the .357 pressures).

SO, the "stubborn fact" is that I can live with a new (stronger in proportion) .45acp jframe that has a slightly larger cylinder (.194" in diameter, at the most, if it was a 6-shot cylinder, less with 5-shots) and a slightly larger diameter (.097") barrel hole. AS, all other dimensions should be able to stay pretty much the same.

In fact the cylinder can also be approx. .29 +/- shorter than the existing jframe due to the difference in the shorter .45acp round. So the cylinder diameter would be the major change...and probably by LESS than .194 of an inch.

So, Yes, I believe it could be done very easily...with essentially no real substantial change in existing .357 Jframe dimensions, except a LESS THAN .194" larger cylinder/frame height. (That's at the MOST...it would be LESS than .194" with a 5-shot, where the increased chambers are not exactly OPPOSITE each other on the cylinder).
Nothing nearly so large as the Nightguard required.

C'mon Smitty! 5-shot .45acp (+P) JFRAME I'll even buy two!

 

[arizonaguide]

To clarify...I DON'T mean using and existing JFrame...but creating a whole new frame...just keeping it's dimensions the same as Jframe wherever possible...which could be in MOST places. A REAL .45acp CCW gun...not a OWB "Service weapon" like the NightGuard.

It could be done (by my calc's anyway) to VERY CLOSE (less than .194") to existing .357 Jframe dimensions...and resulting in being much smaller than the Nightguard series size.

Here's what would have to change (slightly) from the existing jframe:
1.) Cylinder diameter increase (maybe .194" at most, probably less with 5-shot).
2.) Barrel Diameter increase (larger bore by .097+/-").
3.) Front strap wide/tall enough to accept larger barrel and cylinder (.097 wider / less than .194 taller).
4.) Maybe a wider top strap just for cosmetics.
Total dimensional (frame)changes LESS than 2/10's of an inch height and less than 1/10" in width...and NOT a much bigger weapon like the NightGuard is.

Notice the basic grip size, hammer mechanism, etc...could essentially stay very close to the same Jframe dimensions.
IE: A true .45acp CCW gun...comfortable to carry CCW...and comfortable even in my wife's small hand.

 

[arizonaguide]

It CAN be DONE in a small package!!!

For example, take a look at the Charter Bulldog.
It's handling the higher pressures of a .44special cartridge, and is not MUCH bigger than a J-frame. If Charter can do it, I'm sure S&W can make it (even smaller!) in the lower pressure .45acp round. (and of course, even better)!

C'mon Smith and Wesson!!!

 

[ddixie884]

The .44spl is 15,000 PSI
The .45acp is 21,000 PSI and +P is 23,000 PSI

 

[arizonaguide]

WOW, I didn't realize the .44special was only 15Kpsi.

I stand corrected.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Didn't S&W make some 5 shot 44's on K frames? I'm thinking you'd have to try to stuff a K frame cyl onto a Jmag frame if you wanted 5 shots. No math, just my gut feeling. Interestign topic.

 

[darksidejetta]

I read last year that Charter was going to chamber .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9mm. They had come up with some new system to hold the auto shell in place without moon clips. I have not seen it marketed since the article I read.

Anyway, Taurus came out with a six shot snubnose, and of course it has a larger cylinder on their equivalent to J-Frame platform. I think maybe they should do a 2 1/2 & 3 inch 5 shot 45 K-Frame because that big cylinder is going to rule out pocket carry anyway.

 

[arizonaguide]

I think maybe they should do a 2 1/2 & 3 inch 5 shot 45 K-Frame because that big cylinder is going to rule out pocket carry anyway.

Not so much.
ONLY 1/10" wider, and less than 2/10" taller.

According to my rough calcs, they SHOULD be able to build one just that much larger than the existing Jframe.

Less than 1/10" (.097) change in frame width (front & top straps/barrel), and less than 2/10" (<.194) taller to accomodate the <.194" larger cylinder diameter (actually LESS than .194 if a typical 5 shot j-like frame).

MUCH LESS (smaller) than the bulky/larger Nightguard in .45.

Roughly equivalent to the SP101 size.

 

[arizonaguide]

I AM WAAAAAAY WRONG!!! (crap!)

Finally got to sit down and do a rough sketch in AutoCAD...and I'm wrong. THAT'S what I get for trying to do geometry in my head...and then..worse..getting cocky about it. The increase is cummulative at an angle, and the chamber increase (even with other material thicknesses staying roughly the same) increases the .38cylinder by over 25% (+/-), or in fact by over .328" (well over 3/10"). I blew it by not taking into account that the area in the middle of the cylinder (the "star pattern" area in the center, if you will) ALSO has to increase in proportion to the chamber sizes.

Where's Beemer-Mark...I believe I owe him a beer.

Looks like I'm just stuck in the land of the .357 if I want to upgrade the .38...in a Jframe sized rig.
I guess that's not SO BAD.

I STILL think they could make it smaller than a full Kframe service sized weapon though. Isn't the Bulldog .44sp smaller than the typical Kframe/Nightguard?

 

[arizonaguide]

I'm thinking you'd have to try to stuff a K frame cyl onto a Jmag frame if you wanted 5 shots. No math, just my gut feeling.

Yeah, what HE said. THAT'S what I'm sayin...

(my head hurts)

 

[ddixie884]

The 5 shot .44 smifs were L-frames. IIRC.

 

[darksidejetta]

Hang on, the "Charter Arms Rimless Revolvers" in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP are supposed to be out by this summer.

If they are, you'll get you wish and won't have to use moonclips for extraction...

Yep, they are marketing them on their website now.

 

[arizonaguide]

I wonder if the "new" Charter Arms will have close to the fit and finish of anything close to the S&W. I guess I WILL have to go put a paw on one.

 

[petemacmahon]

yup - they were all L frames.

The 5 shot .44 smifs were L-frames. IIRC.

I love my Actions by T DAO w/bobbed hammer 696, and I used to carry it in a Milt Sparks IWB Executive special holster a bunch. But is is not pocket gun and even as a IWB gun it was a bit hefty compared to my Kimber Compact Carry.

Yeah, I think your pretty much stuck with the .357 J frames. Personally, you can have them! My 442 kicks enough with 38 +Ps! You could probably find some gun smith willing to turn a 5 shot 357 J frame into a 4 shot 44 special but a 45 ACP will be pushing it.

BTW - I've run a bunch of hotter than 15,000 PSI 44 special load through my 696 (see some of Brian Pearce's articles in Handloader mag) and have taken a whitetail doe cleanly thought the heart with a load of 14.3 grains of 2400 over a 240 grain LSWC hardcast bullet. That load is probably pushing over 15,000 PSI.

// Pete

 

[arizonaguide]

Yeah, I think your pretty much stuck with the .357 J frames. Personally, you can have them! My 442 kicks enough with 38 +Ps!

Yup, that's what I have now (love my 442) and so much so that I'm thinking of an UPGRADE (to a 640, I guess) and give the 442 to the wife. I've got 158grLSWCHP's (+P) from BuffBore in it now.

Although I'm also looking into CS45 or similar.
I DO want to stick with the double action trigger for muscle memory "feel"...so I like the S&W's.
And, of course "Made in USA"!

But it's hard to beat the Jframes for CCW comfort. (in Arizona)

 

[Horacesmiff]

Shorty 45

My 5", 53oz. 625 suggests that this could be a handful. Especially on 2nd. shot.