JOHN ROSS 500! I need help putting your bullets and revolver together

[ruggyh]

Originally Posted by S.B. "I, too, own a JRC 500 IIRC I started with bottom loads listed on Hodgdon's reloading page, especially with 296 don't go under this! Pressures seem to spike quickly(dangerously) if you go under their bottom load.
Steve"

Can you please provide source for low charge weight produces pressure spikes with H110.

Case volumes below 90% of H110 typically don't burn properly and create enough pressure for the bullet to leave the barrel creating an obstruction not a kaboom.

Originally Posted by trowe2 View Post
The problem I have is that load data is not really out there for my 565 gr bullets. Another member said that 30 gr H110 will do the trick. I have a 10/10 scale so I can load partial grains fairly easily and scale it up from there slowly to see how close I am to bad pressure signs. But with you, I'm really more worried about the one time I load too little powder than I am the one time i load too much.

The 454 Casuall, 500 S&W and 460 S&W should not be treated like typical handgun cartridges; they are operating 15,000 psi or more than all other handgun calibers.

As suggested about contact Matt and get some proven data for his lead.

 

[vipermd]

Case volumes below 90% of H110 typically don't burn properly and create enough pressure for the bullet to leave the barrel creating an obstruction not a kaboom.

Did you mean leave the case and create a barrel obstruction, if not where would the obstruction be if the bullet left the barrel. Be Safe,

 

[S.B.]

The 454 Casuall, 500 S&W and 460 S&W should not be treated like typical handgun cartridges; they are operating 15,000 psi or more than all other handgun calibers.

As suggested about contact Matt and get some proven data for his lead.

Actually, the 500 operates at 60,000 PSI. In other words, its rifle pressure.
Steve

 

[ruggyh]

Actually, the 500 operates at 60,000 PSI. In other words, its rifle pressure.
Steve

Read what I wrote-

they are operating 15,000 psi or more than all other handgun calibers.

and please point to us to your reference(s) low charge weight with H110 cause pressure spikes

Did you mean leave the case and create a barrel obstruction, if not where would the obstruction be if the bullet left the barrel. Be Safe,

Yes, thanks for making it clear to all
though I did see a instance out here were the guy tied up a cylinder on a 460 S&W ES, the bullet lodge in the front of the forcing cone. He side he was trying to make a reduced load for his girl friend, so he just used half the max. for a 200 grain FTX, so I guess he used about 27 grains H110.

 

[trowe2]

I found some 4227 here in town. I performed a linear regression on some load data I found for it, and the charge associated with different weight bullets is nearly linear. R^2 = 0.94

Using the regression line, I was able to extrapolate loads for my 565 grain bullets. 27 gr of 4227 was the starting load I came up with, but the bullet on the 500 has to be seated very deeply. I'm a bit concerned that I'm compressing the load, but I did my best to measure it and it seems like the powder is just barely below the bullet in the case. So I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel scaling it down anymore. Either way, I finally have some loads ready to rock and roll and I'll likely try them out tomorrow evening.

 

[ruggyh]

You will find many loads for the 500 are compressed when using magnum pistol powders. Some powders actually perform better under slight compression, H110 comes to mind.

The 565 JR bullet was designed to use as little as case volume as possible and still provide adequate case tension.

Unfortunately I am out of the country or I could provide you with better guidance and QL simulation information.

4227 is a good choice with this bullet in experience.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[trowe2]

So all went well with my test firing. I loaded 10 rounds with 565 grain lead cast round nose bullets, half loaded with 26 gr of 4227 and the other half with 27 gr. The 26 gr cases fell right out of the cylinder like a weak .38 special and the 27 gr cases slid out very smoothly. No other signs of trouble, so id say I can load higher, which I plan on doing.

I'm definitely hooked. Thanks to everyone who helped me get to this point!

 

[BLUEDOT37]

...with 296 ...Pressures seem to spike quickly (dangerously) if you go under their bottom load.

I would advise yiou read some about Win 296?

.

If you're implying that sub-magnum pressure loads are dangerous, look at the published Lyman starting load at 20.6K psi with W296/H110 in the 500 Mag with a 400gr cast lead bullet.

.

 

[S.B.]

Bluedot, I don't understand what you're asking? I should of said that it is dangerous to use less than published loads with 296? So, if you're using a Lyman manual it should be within parameters.
Steve

 

[Davethegundoctor]

Have look into CFE powder. It is just the ticket for 5.56/.223 loads Call the company??

 

[thibaultfelix40]

500 S&W

Before I heard of John Ross I bought a 500 S&W Handirifle for the express purpose of loading slow moving large boolits. Brian Pierce had published some data using Tightgroup powder which he said he picked because it was reputed to not be position sensitive. I have used it and Unique behind various slugs. They did what I wanted to do. When I posted some loads on another forum John Ross came on and somewhat scathingly told me if I wanted to download the 500S&W I should use Trailboss. I had never heard of him and ignored his post. I used the pistol powders to load light recoiling loads for the 500S&W that seemed to knock the snot out of rocks, stumps, and water bottles. I like a load of 6.4 grains of Unique behind the 365 grain Lee modern improved miniball which is a huge hollow based wadcutter. This is less than half of the max recommended for Unique so I don't worry about double charging. I am not real sure why you are worried about under charging. You might want to look at different powders, 2400 comes to mind. I bought a pound of 4198 but haven't tried it. A basic load of 16 grains of 2400 is recommended to make any gun go "bang". Speer shows 38 grains as a minimum with a 350 grain Hotcore. Somewhere between these two numbers should be a load for you. It is my experience that if you like to research and fool around the 500S&W can be a really fun toy. If you are a boolit caster the Lee 50 caliber muzzle loader projectiles cast from alloys make it interesting.

 

[ruggyh]

I am not real sure why you are worried about under charging

There have been a number of reports of detonation when using slow rifle powders under reduced loads conditions.

Note: all John's recommendations using slow powders are at or near 100% case fill.

Trailboss is no brainier here - it what the powder was designed to do.

It is my experience that if you like to research and fool around the 500S&W can be a really fun toy.

I have seen a few x-frames in pieces because the owners were "fooling around".

The 500 and 460 are great guns for the handloader.
Reloading is safe when we follow the recipe.
When we don't the consequences can be life impacting.

The case volume and cross section capacity makes the 500 some what forgiving for reloading.
Some powder choices do work but are far from best choices yet often recommend because someone used them without a kaboom. Fast pistol powder may seem like a good solution but peak pressure is typically very high even in reduced loads and the cases easy to remove after firing. Most handloaders would conclude that these are safe because they did not see any of those magic "pressure signs" that seem to so touted.
If you do not use a pressure barrel or pressure test tool you don't know what is really happening.

Chose your load data from sources developed by ballistions
Some load data manuals are are compiled with no reference as to source. I believe the most reliable data is that published by the major bullet manufactures.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[S.B.]

Before I heard of John Ross I bought a 500 S&W Handirifle for the express purpose of loading slow moving large boolits. Brian Pierce had published some data using Tightgroup powder which he said he picked because it was reputed to not be position sensitive. I have used it and Unique behind various slugs. They did what I wanted to do. When I posted some loads on another forum John Ross came on and somewhat scathingly told me if I wanted to download the 500S&W I should use Trailboss. I had never heard of him and ignored his post. I used the pistol powders to load light recoiling loads for the 500S&W that seemed to knock the snot out of rocks, stumps, and water bottles. I like a load of 6.4 grains of Unique behind the 365 grain Lee modern improved miniball which is a huge hollow based wadcutter. This is less than half of the max recommended for Unique so I don't worry about double charging. I am not real sure why you are worried about under charging. You might want to look at different powders, 2400 comes to mind. I bought a pound of 4198 but haven't tried it. A basic load of 16 grains of 2400 is recommended to make any gun go "bang". Speer shows 38 grains as a minimum with a 350 grain Hotcore. Somewhere between these two numbers should be a load for you. It is my experience that if you like to research and fool around the 500S&W can be a really fun toy. If you are a boolit caster the Lee 50 caliber muzzle loader projectiles cast from alloys make it interesting.

Unless, I miss my guess, John is saying he prefers powders that fill the case more than others that will do the same job? Filling the case fuller prevents over charging more easily, IMHO.
Steve

 

[ruggyh]

Unfortunately John Ross's website has been down for some time. A review of his 500 S&W can be found here The John  Ross S&W Performance Center 5" .500 Magnum and provides some back ground on him and the development fo the 500S&W. He provided insight to S&W on early issues with the 500 which brought a few changes to the initial design. He also did a tremendous amount of bullet and load development with the help of several prominent balisticians.

When i return states side I will see if we can get permission to post his history and load development suggestion document here. A signed copy was included with each John Ross Performance Center Revolver. 500 guns were produce, half with two tones finish and half stainless finish.

I consider it a must read for all 500 S&W owners and handloaders.

 

[roscoepc]

After thumbing through my bookmarks I found this page that has loading info for various sized bullets available for the 500. Nothing there for the 565gr round but info all the way to the 700gr round! Hope this helps out!

Reloading 500 S&W Magnum Page

 

[surfgun]

Let us see a photo of that Ross .500 already!

 

[trowe2]

After thumbing through my bookmarks I found this page that has loading info for various sized bullets available for the 500. Nothing there for the 565gr round but info all the way to the 700gr round! Hope this helps out!

Reloading 500 S&W Magnum Page

That website was definitely helpful for figuring out my problem here. I've updated my initial post.

 

[trowe2]

Let us see a photo of that Ross .500 already!

I'll get some good pictures of it in its natural habitat next time I take it for a woods walk.

 

[S.B.]

Let us see a photo of that Ross .500 already!

Steve

 

[Bartoe]

Sorry, can't help with the 565 gr., but Veral Smith has an section on load development without any data in his book "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets." I've used his methods with success for many calibers, including a 500 gr. load for my own John Ross 500.