Just back from the Indy NRA show

[cpeblue]

On Friday I cornered a couple of S&W reps who were clueless about 3rd gens . They introduced me to there Multon (?) production guy. I asked about the current unavailability of 3rd gen parts and was told unmistakeably that THEY NO LONGER MAKE THOSE GUNS and any parts they have are for agencies that still use them..... But if I do need a part to give the phone rep the # and they might let me get one.

I asked if the CHP ordered another 1000 4006tsw would they make them ? I received a unenthusiastic yes they would.

So there was my 'nothing to see here move along' time with the S&W reps. I have the feeling the Mother Ship Don't Like Us 3rd Geners .

From what I saw at the S&W booth they are a revolver company that also makes 1911s and they are trying to get there Poly pistols to be loved by all .

 

[357-RevolverGuy]

I really wish they'd realize that they are a revolver company (as you mentioned.) I can't remember the last time they advertised their revolvers. All the magazines always run M&P ads.

 

[cpeblue]

They had quit a few revolvers there but the big push was on the poly M&Ps, and let me not forget there ARs (which there seems to be an over abundance of)

 

[timn8er]

On Friday I cornered a couple of S&W reps who were clueless about 3rd gens . They introduced me to there Multon (?) production guy. I asked about the current unavailability of 3rd gen parts and was told unmistakeably that THEY NO LONGER MAKE THOSE GUNS and any parts they have are for agencies that still use them..... But if I do need a part to give the phone rep the # and they might let me get one.

I asked if the CHP ordered another 1000 4006tsw would they make them ? I received a unenthusiastic yes they would.

So there was my 'nothing to see here move along' time with the S&W reps. I have the feeling the Mother Ship Don't Like Us 3rd Geners .

From what I saw at the S&W booth they are a revolver company that also makes 1911s and they are trying to get there Poly pistols to be loved by all .

I think you may be right. In fact, we may be somewhat of an embarrassment to them. Here they are, offering the "latest & greatest" in poly pistols, & here's this mass of gun owners that prefer to own & shoot twenty & thirty year old guns. I won't get into which is better as I do own two M&P's, but that's opposed to twelve 3rd Gens. I believe there's a place for both, & though I can understand S&W's business decision not to provide support for the earlier models, I still think its a terrible thing to do to a section of its customer base, & it will affect any gun buying I do in the future.

 

[cpeblue]

timn8er, you can believe that when I left that booth I had serious thoughts of dumping my 15 and going back to SIG, even the Armscor folks were more friendly even with the slight language barrier .

 

[timn8er]

I just can't understand the attitude. Is S&W doing so well that that the can afford to alienate a sizable portion of its fan base? I realize I know little about the "business" but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me. What do you think?

 

[nocents]

So there was my 'nothing to see here move along' time with the S&W reps. I have the feeling the Mother Ship Don't Like Us 3rd Geners .

you know..... the more I think about this the more it just frosts me.......S&W didn't abandon their revolver customer base........and I agree about giving new and used Sigs a second,third a fourth look from now on......and I have nothing against poly guns....they just don't appeal to me

 

[gm272gs]

I talked with the Smith & Wesson Reps on Friday and today (Saturday). They were more friendly and engaging on Friday. Today was a mad house, for everyone. Ruger was PACKED, and they were still friendly and engaging.

The only booth that had more people standing around was Daniel Defense - but that's because they were giving away a gun!

 

[cpeblue]

I talked with the Smith & Wesson Reps on Friday and today (Saturday). They were more friendly and engaging on Friday. Today was a mad house, for everyone. Ruger was PACKED, and they were still friendly and engaging.

The only booth that had more people standing around was Daniel Defense - but that's because they were giving away a gun!

How about the Kahr Arms booth?? was the model still there today signing posters, that was another group that bent over backwards too help you and had a large crowd on Friday.

As crowded as it was on Friday our little group decided we would forgo Saturday and drink and toss the bull Friday night . Then leave mid morning . This was my 4th convention and by far the most crowded.

The first two reps from S&W were friendly enough just couldn't have been employees for to long of a time. The rep from Multon was a bit on the crass side and no I was not confrontational . I even asked the Hodgon rep were all the powder was, I sure he had heard that at least 50k times that day and even he was still smiling.

 

[4506517]

I think with the exception of a few more 3rd gennies I want to acquire, I'm about to just write S&W off. By now everyone knows my issues with the M&P, and let's face it....as much as folks try to deny it, Glock will continue to dominate the poly market. The M&P will always chase the Glock. S&W has kinda become like GM.....always last to the party, always chasing trends......never a trend setter nor introducing something revolutionary. Always a follower never a leader....followed everyone else into the 1911 and AR game as well. We are issuing one of the S&W AR models for patrol rifles.....one word: CHEAP. They feel flimsy and low quality.

I like revolvers, but not that much. S&W does a marvelous revolver.....however they only have one company to compete against now....Ruger. At least Ruger had the guts to design and build a new take on the AR. Maybe since Ruger is willing to listen to their customers that's why they're building new factories.

Anyway, like I said. S&W isn't interested in what I like anymore. That's fine. There are other companies that are.....and I think I'll go back to patronizing them.

 

[GaryS]

I haven't had a chance to talk to anyone from S&W and now I'm not sure that I need to. It is a shame that a company that touts a life time warranty won't even supply parts for a line of semi autos that are still very popular even though no longer in production.

As to the show itself, all of the exhibitors seem more upbeat than last year. Even the gun and component manufacturers are talking about the availability of their products. Last year most were quoting six month availability of AR components.

Floor traffic today was crazy busy. It was what I called "tire kicker day" because it seems that a lot of people who were at work yesterday were off today and came to the exhibit hall. It was just too jammed out there so I gave up early and will try tomorrow.

 

[perrazi]

your first sentence says it all. reps that are clueless. not limited to s&w either.

 

[cpeblue]

your first sentence says it all. reps that are clueless. not limited to s&w either.

I found the Taurus reps to be the least knowledgeable. For a real deer in the headlight look ask some of the smaller builders of 1911s what makes there gun worth $3500.

 

[cpeblue]

I think with the exception of a few more 3rd gennies I want to acquire, I'm about to just write S&W off. By now everyone knows my issues with the M&P, and let's face it....as much as folks try to deny it, Glock will continue to dominate the poly market. The M&P will always chase the Glock. S&W has kinda become like GM.....always last to the party, always chasing trends......never a trend setter nor introducing something revolutionary. Always a follower never a leader....followed everyone else into the 1911 and AR game as well. We are issuing one of the S&W AR models for patrol rifles.....one word: CHEAP. They feel flimsy and low quality.

I like revolvers, but not that much. S&W does a marvelous revolver.....however they only have one company to compete against now....Ruger. At least Ruger had the guts to design and build a new take on the AR. Maybe since Ruger is willing to listen to their customers that's why they're building new factories.

Anyway, like I said. S&W isn't interested in what I like anymore. That's fine. There are other companies that are.....and I think I'll go back to patronizing them.

What more could anyone say . You hit this one right out of the park !!

 

[nocents]

I was gonna skip this one but Indy is only about an hour away for me........kinda wish I had went tonight.....luv me some Alabama

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

It is hard to find good help these days.

 

[gm272gs]

I found the Taurus reps to be the least knowledgeable. For a real deer in the headlight look ask some of the smaller builders of 1911s what makes there gun worth $3500.

No kidding. I asked a kid in a Taurus shirt if they had a PT-92 in blue or stainless, and he looked at me exactly like a deer in the headlights. He had to go ask someone who "knew", and came back and said "no". Buying the rights from Beretta to make their copy of the 92F made Taurus famous, and they didn't bring any to the show. Weird !

 

[Joe F]

Sounds like S&W is missing half of the "trade show"equation. Obviously, companies want to push their latest and greatest products. The other piece is to find out what the customer wants. Maybe they've tested the market and the demand for 3rd gen parts isn't as big as we think, but I suspect they just have their head in the sand.

 

[dkelly27]

I have three S&W Autos. I have a 645,a 4013TSW and a 411 .40. I think that with the attitude that S&W has toward 3rd. gen. guns that I will be buying some other make from now on. I also have a Star Ultrastar 9mm that is not made any more and I shoot that more than my Smiths. I also have a Kahr CW9 that I like very much.

 

[Nlmadog]

I think S & W should have sold shirts and hats, other than attendees handling the guns not much going on at S &W. The Show was packed and I did eliminate some guns from my wish list, walked out not dying to buy anything. I did get my Cabot !!! They had a couple of magazines left !! For the Duck Dynasty guys Mountain Man was doing photos for $ 5.00. Got a nice $ 10 shirt !

 

[skjos]

.... We are issuing one of the S&W AR models for patrol rifles.....one word: CHEAP. They feel flimsy and low quality.

I bought the early model of the M&P 15T (Troy rail version) it is a very solid AR, sad to hear they have gone down hill.

 

[carbuncle]

I have 3 3rd Gens, but I think this news will keep me from buying any more as I have the ones on my bucket list. Too bad, but S&W's loss is Sig's gain.

Posted from my car phone.

 

[SMSgt]

One thing to keep in mind when wanting out-of-production anything is: No matter how well they sold, Ford is not going to produce a Model T. Ain't happening.

 

[Fastbolt]

Too bad, but S&W's loss is Sig's gain.

Don't think that SIG isn't feeling the heat from the demand created by inexpensively produced plastic pistols.

Yes, they created their SRT sear to better compete against S&W 3rd gen TSW's (according to what we were told in a SIG Classic Pistol armorer class in the mid 2000's).

Notice how SIG has become sort of a "gun of the month" maker, similar to what S&W was doing with their metal pistols when the commercial catalog still contained 3rd gen guns? Gotta do something to keep attracting the non-LE/Gov buyers, right? Finishes, styling, model variations, etc. Bottom line? Prices are getting up there, aren't they?

Also, they've been trying to get their own plastic pistol models up and running well enough to try and win some contracts. Don't be at all surprised if the plethora of expensive metal-framed SIG's eventually give way to a new "flagship" service pistol, or models, at some point. Less costly to produce, support, maintain and train armorers to service & repair.

Not surprising the newer reps may not have been around in LE work when the 3rd gen guns were still in-service in big numbers.

You have to admit it guys ...

As much as some older, longtime owners & users of the S&W metal-framed TDA pistols (and the fewer numbers of DAO shooters ) might be willing to pay $1000 (and more) for a new TSW ... the guns we'd all buy wouldn't come close to generating the sales - let alone profits - of the markets being willing to buy - and demanding - plastic guns.

If the Houlton plant has to make handcuffs, .22's, PPK's (for Walther's US sales) and 1911's, any machine time spent on a 3rd gen/TSW is time that can't be spent to make the other guns actually in demand, right now.

Like it or not, if it takes approx 85 seconds for Glock to pop out a completed frame ... and it takes 30 minutes of machine CNC time to make a 3rd gen frame ... how can S&W compete in the time-is-money lucrative service pistol market? (S&W's M&P frames are made by a long time vendor of plastic parts, so it saves them factory time and manufacturing space, BTW.)

I remember the last time some lightly used (one agency's T&E) factory LE .40/.45 TSW demo guns became available, and they were offered at a 1-time deal ranging from $600-$700/each. There are some folks on this forum who would quibble about paying that much for a used gun that wasn't pristine, guaranteed only used by the little old lady from Pasadena, and also complain about the lack (or type) of a box which came with the gun.

Metal guns are expensive to make compared to plastic guns. It's not like the company hasn't looked at their market demographics, reviewed sales figures for both private & LE/Gov buyers, cost of support, etc and made their decision.

Do you expect to see Glock get into metal-framed pistols? How about HK?

If S&W had been selling their TSW's faster than they could be produced, and for a price which offered them a reasonable & sustainable profit margin, they'd still be making them.

More's the pity.

 

[pharmer]

Unfortunately, no one can show what a plastic gun will look like in 100 years. Sound like a long time? Not in the life of a firearm. I've seen 100 year old Winchesters, Lugers, Broomhandles, SAA's that look like they were new last year. Probably not going to happen with a plastic gun. I'll carry my 6906 for 20 more years unless I'm dead first. Joe

 

[James&theGiant1911]

Sig makes a great gun and while not the most accurate, I love their p228 and my newest p229 in .357 sig. I do not understand why that cartridge has not caught on more. A more powerful round basically adding the advantages of a S&W 40 cartridge into a 9mm. Sigs have maintained their price levels and are very good at meeting the demand for their pistols. Meaning most of what they produce are sold through immediately.

I am afraid that the Smith and Wesson pistols which we all cherish on this forum are going to continue to rise and increase in price. The days of affordable performance center and TSW pistols are long gone and are going to continue to increase in price. Like classic muscle cars or baseball cards they do not produce them any longer, they were awesome pieces when they came out. When the supply of pristine/ clean 3rd gens is lower than the demand for them then people will continue to be able to name their price on the pieces they want sold.

Can you name another firearm that has increased as much? The Browning Hi Power goes up and down, old collectable 1911s especially Colt's remain relatively flat and performance 1911s such as Nighthawks and Wilson Combats continue to sell for a thousand or more less than they were new. The only pistols increasing in prices and selling for as much as some very collectable or custom firearms are the 3rd generation smiths. It is a bear market, with so much demand that anytime any reasonable 3rd gen hits the market it is sold immediately.

I would buy everyone of them I could (given funds) in great LNIB or NIB condition.

 

[ladder13]

Don't think that SIG isn't feeling the heat from the demand created by inexpensively produced plastic pistols.

Yes, they created their SRT sear to better compete against S&W 3rd gen TSW's (according to what we were told in a SIG Classic Pistol armorer class in the mid 2000's).

Notice how SIG has become sort of a "gun of the month" maker, similar to what S&W was doing with their metal pistols when the commercial catalog still contained 3rd gen guns? Gotta do something to keep attracting the non-LE/Gov buyers, right? Finishes, styling, model variations, etc. Bottom line? Prices are getting up there, aren't they?

Also, they've been trying to get their own plastic pistol models up and running well enough to try and win some contracts. Don't be at all surprised if the plethora of expensive metal-framed SIG's eventually give way to a new "flagship" service pistol, or models, at some point. Less costly to produce, support, maintain and train armorers to service & repair.

Not surprising the newer reps may not have been around in LE work when the 3rd gen guns were still in-service in big numbers.

You have to admit it guys ...

As much as some older, longtime owners & users of the S&W metal-framed TDA pistols (and the fewer numbers of DAO shooters ) might be willing to pay $1000 (and more) for a new TSW ... the guns we'd all buy wouldn't come close to generating the sales - let alone profits - of the markets being willing to buy - and demanding - plastic guns.

If the Houlton plant has to make handcuffs, .22's, PPK's (for Walther's US sales) and 1911's, any machine time spent on a 3rd gen/TSW is time that can't be spent to make the other guns actually in demand, right now.

Like it or not, if it takes approx 85 seconds for Glock to pop out a completed frame ... and it takes 30 minutes of machine CNC time to make a 3rd gen frame ... how can S&W compete in the time-is-money lucrative service pistol market? (S&W's M&P frames are made by a long time vendor of plastic parts, so it saves them factory time and manufacturing space, BTW.)

I remember the last time some lightly used (one agency's T&E) factory LE .40/.45 TSW demo guns became available, and they were offered at a 1-time deal ranging from $600-$700/each. There are some folks on this forum who would quibble about paying that much for a used gun that wasn't pristine, guaranteed only used by the little old lady from Pasadena, and also complain about the lack (or type) of a box which came with the gun.

Metal guns are expensive to make compared to plastic guns. It's not like the company hasn't looked at their market demographics, reviewed sales figures for both private & LE/Gov buyers, cost of support, etc and made their decision.

Do you expect to see Glock get into metal-framed pistols? How about HK?

If S&W had been selling their TSW's faster than they could be produced, and for a price which offered them a reasonable & sustainable profit margin, they'd still be making them.

More's the pity.

Spot on, as always.

 

[vista461]

I don't see it as any different than any other manufacturer. Lots of car enthusiasts like the GM G-body cars from the 80's (Cutlass, Regal, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix) GM's last full frame, rear drive, intermediate car. They made lots of them and they made GM lots of money, but you don't see GM caring about them. Companies are in the business of selling stuff. If there was a huge market for $1000 TDA metal frame guns, they'd still be making them. Even SIG is branching out to other type of guns.

There is a core group that love the 3rd gen, but how many are they going to sell at $800-$1000, when you can pick up a nice used one for around $400?

And yes I love my 4003.

 

[GaryS]

As I recall Sig had a polymer framed gun in the late 1990s. I had an issued 2340 and I think there was a 9mm version as well. I wasn't a big fan of it, but I had no choice.

At the show I looked at the Sig 239. Beautifully made gun, but at well over $1K, it tells us what a newly made 3rd (or 4th) generation S&W semi auto would cost.

I also looked at the newly introduced Walther CCP. It's a polymer frame, but seemed pretty nice. It will be probably a year before the MA compliant version hits the stores, but it's an option, even though it's polymer.

The truth is that I'll continue to use my 3913TSW as my primary self defense carry until something makes it unusable. At that point, I worry about what I'm going to replace it with. Given the general reliability of the the 3rd generation guns, I don't think that's going to be very soon though.

 

[cpeblue]

First let me say I am not a Luddite . I do not expect S&W to ever make new 3rd gens for the public . I have more than I could ever wear out so it really isn't a concern. I own a couple of 7 poly guns and have no great distaste for them and I can see why the gun world is speeding in that direction . My main concern was the total washing of the hands attitude that S&W shows in maintaining service parts for the 3rd gens . I'm sure the aftermarket will step up but that will take a while and things will be Expensive .

As long as we were comparing company's (S&W to Sig) How about CZ ? They have there poly guns and 1911s a rifle line plus shot guns and still have a large line of metal semi autos . I can get service parts for my 15 year old gun with out a problem. There custom center gun are all over a grand and they seem to have no problem selling them. So there is at least one company that seems to be able to live in the poly and steel world with out much of a problem and yes I do have a couple 3 metal CZs .