K-22 Pre-war & SCSW Description - Updated

PeteC

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Questions about the pre-WWII K-22, 1st~2nd Models, and their description in the SCSW 4th edition, pg 135...136, including two different rear sights.

I usually do my own research in the SCSW, and then here, but I guess I am asking for a shortcut, so to speak, :D (Consignment at my favorite local-ish gun shop).

Is the description and pricing of these models accurate in the SCSW, allowing for some increase in value over the last few years?

I'm friendly with one of the employees, who told me there may be one about to go on consignment there, but the person who told me also said the rear sights do not look "right" for that model, and he can't find a clear pic of them.

Any comments on pricing and/or especially a link to a clear pic of one with the top strap and rear sight would be much appreciated.

TIA!

edit: See pics in post 41.
 
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Top left of page 136 in SCSW has 2 pics of sights from K-22 Outdoorsman (K-22 1st Model). The top pic shows one screw at the rear of the sight. The bottom pic shows 2 screws.
The 1st Model guns were built from 1931 to 1940. The earlier guns have the one screw sight. I had a gun that shipped in 1931 with the earlier sight. My gun from 1937 has the later sight.
 
Just what I needed, thanks very much!!

No s/n, no. They have some kind of store policy about giving out s/n's and pics of consignment guns, I don't really understand all of it. Person I spoke to has the SCSW book, and said "in the range for 1st and 2nd change" (I think he means model), and "but the rear sight does not look right". I want to go there with as much info as possible, it is not likely to be a bargain gun. I have bought some other nice S&W revolvers there over the years at fair prices, but consignment is different, they just put it out at what the owner wants plus commission.
 
Top left of page 136 in SCSW has 2 pics of sights from K-22 Outdoorsman (K-22 1st Model). The top pic shows one screw at the rear of the sight. The bottom pic shows 2 screws.
The 1st Model guns were built from 1931 to 1940. The earlier guns have the one screw sight. I had a gun that shipped in 1931 with the earlier sight. My gun from 1937 has the later sight.
Yeah, I saw that. Online pics are often better. Is there any other possibility for a rear sight?

Do you shoot yours, or are they strictly collectibles now?
(the oldest .22 I have is from the 1950's, and the one I shoot most often is a 1960's Model 17-2)
 
All I know of are the 2 sights. I am far from an expert. I sold the 1931 gun, I shoot the 1937 gun.
Have not tried to adjust the sight, the screws are tiny.
Hopefully one of the experts will chime in.
 
Here is my gun from April 1937. SN 661640

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I have an earlier M&P target model with that sight style, the elevation screw is stuck tight and I had no luck with anything I tried to loosen. Fortunately it is stuck about where it should be at 20 yards so I am leaving it alone. If I broke that screw, I wouldn’t know how to replace it, even if I could find another screw.
 
Just what I needed, thanks very much!!

No s/n, no. They have some kind of store policy about giving out s/n's and pics of consignment guns, I don't really understand all of it. Person I spoke to has the SCSW book, and said "in the range for 1st and 2nd change" (I think he means model), and "but the rear sight does not look right". I want to go there with as much info as possible, it is not likely to be a bargain gun. I have bought some other nice S&W revolvers there over the years at fair prices, but consignment is different, they just put it out at what the owner wants plus commission.
The second model or K-22 / 40 is a scarce and valuable bird. Since they are seldom encountered in gun stores I can understand the salespersons description as an Outdoorsman with a rear sight that doesn't look right. That's a pretty good description actually, no barrel rib like the first model outdoorsman but with the larger micrometer rear sight. Let us know what she looks like when you get your hands on it.
 
In my notes, I list the K-22 First Models will be found within a SN range below 682419. I list the Second Model (K-22/40) SNs as being found within 682,420 to 696,952. The lowest SN Second Model that I have listed is 684402, but undoubtedly there are lower numbered Second Models. I'd think that if the subject K-22's SN is below around, say, 682xxx, it is highly likely that it will be a First Model. The type of rear sight will be the true tell.
 
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Here is a pic of the sight my 1937 gun from the top. A pic of the 2nd Model from the 1941 catalog.
I would say the reason for the difference in price is scarcity. 19,500 1st Models, 1067 2nd Models.
I guess I will have to wait to see it, or ask the owner nicely to send a pic. I doubt it would be a rare 2nd Model. The shop owner would notice something like that, and I know someone looked up the s/n, even if I don't know it.
 
Okay----------the early K-22 1st carries a rear sight with a single elevation adjusting screw-----the fifth in a series of similar sights, except that the screw is visible on top of the sight body. The previous renditions had the screw under the tang, accessible through a hole in the tang----the theory being the tension of the tang would prevent the screw from moving ("shooting loose")-----------not that there's much concern about .22 sights shooting loose, but these same sights were used on higher caliber guns-----and none of them completely eliminated shooting loose---nor did the single screw sight used on the early K-22 1st's.

The later K-22 1st's carried what is commonly known as the "two screw" sight----two screws at the aft end---both of which are employed in adjusting elevation, AND locking the sight in place---the first S&W sight that absolutely, positively will not shoot loose-------if/when properly adjusted and locked.

Proper adjustment and locking goes like this: Make the initial adjustment with the aft screw (get close). Make the final adjustment with the screw immediately in front of the aft screw. Now turn the aft screw counterclockwise as far as it will go. The screw is now locked in place by virtue of the fact the forward screw is pressing against the frame (top strap), and the aft screw is pulling against the frame via a flange nut with the flange riding in a slot milled into the top strap. This is clearly the very best sight S&W ever designed in that it won't shoot loose, AND it's infinitely adjustable for elevation, whereas the later "Micrometer" sight moves the point of impact a fixed amount for each "click" made by its adjustment screw------with no provision for finer adjustment. The adjustment on the "two screw" sight moves the point of impact 1" for each FULL turn of the screw, for each 10 yards of range. So much for the sights---except for stuck screws: Raise the rear of sight by whatever means are available-----a wooden or plastic wedge works well. Now given access to the sight channel underneath the sight tang, pour your favorite screw unsticker juice directly into the channel (Kroil is hard to beat!). With the gun fixed in a barrel down configuration, the penetrating oil has DIRECT access to the screw threads---rather than trying to find its way past the head of the screw on top----which can take DAYS----and a whole bunch of wasted super juice. This routine is, by the way, for unsticking the teeny-tiny little screw up front---the one fastening the sight to the frame. I've never encountered a stuck adjusting screw, although I reckon if you dropped the gun in the lake, and didn't bother taking it apart and cleaning/drying every single piece/nook/cranny, then you got exactly what was coming to you!!

Shooters or Collectibles? Yes---take your pick! You're not going to do any damage shooting them----never mind I wouldn't even think of doing it!

Value: I had two in my collection---only because one of them carried a King Cockeyed Hammer. They sold along with the rest of my collection in the past 3+ years as follows:

#659434, shipped January 28, 1937----$1750

#646192, shipped March 20, 1934----$2500----with the King Cockeyed Hammer---which cost $5.00 in the 1930's.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, pre-war sight screws (aside from the K-22 2nd's) are a pain in the butt because of the very small screws. That problem is easily overcome by Lowes Kobalt Precision Screwdriver Set, #0525844----their claim to fame being handles you can hold with your hands----rather than your fingers---which is the only game in town if you're using so-called Jewelers screwdrivers.
 
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Gentleman,
I feel like we are making this too complicated. If you have a pre war K 22, turn it on it's side. Look at the windage screw in the side of the rear sight , below the sight blade. If the screw is tiny, its a first model. If the screw is the larger size we are accustomed to seeing , its a second model. If its a second model, it's very valuable, you should buy it if it's reasonable. The only way this will fail is if the rear sight is the modern type with the square front and some bubba gunsmith has screwed it on, which would be obvious. If the base is smaller and beautifully fit, flush in the frame like those pre war revolvers are, and the sight adjustment screw is big, buy it!
 
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As an aside, I'm thinking the "second model" these folks are mentioning is, in fact, the 2nd Model K-22-----known as the Masterpiece. It's essentially the same in appearance to the 1st Model (The Outdoorsman)---except it carries the Micrometer click adjustable rear sight, and has a "short action". It is considerably more valuable than the Outdoorsman by virtue of the fact only 1,067 were ever made. AND it's much heralded Micrometer sight moved the point of impact by 1/2" at 25 yards for each "click"----not the hot set-up for driving nails, or lighting matches, but adequate for paper targets---and probably because there ain't a whole lot of folks who can drive nails or light matches in the first place-------never mind what sort of sights they have.

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Maybe you could ask the dealer to give you only the first three or four digits of the SN, not the full SN. That should be enough information to determine what it is.
Just tried that. Owner of the shop said no to the s/n, but he also said, "definitely not a 2nd model, or even close by s/n", so he obviously knows what it is. I can "come in with my own books and pics, and write down anything I like"... LOL.

Apparently they have a LOT of consignment guns right now, and they are not putting all of them out at the same time. I get that, if there are too many up for sale, people make low-ball offers, or cherry pick what is there. Same as the tables at the shows. He also said there are a total of two screws in the top strap, not three, and no "set screw" (not sure if he meant something is missing, so perhaps I misunderstood what his employee meant). Sounds like that is all I am going to get, but now I also know I have time to mine old threads for information here... ;):D

edit: I did not mean to suggest I had found something "rare" but from reviewing the thread, I can also see where the original description I received came from, and why. There are apparently three different rear sights between the 1st and 2nd pre-war models, not two as one might think reading the SCSW quickly.

If I find out more, or get any pics, I will definitely post them.
 
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I have a very nice K-22 Outdoorsman that I shoot whenever I have the chance. It still looks and acts like the day I bought it several years ago. Just last week it was used to ‘get rid’ of a pesky rodent loaded with .22 shorts. Did I mention the trigger pull is amazingly good?
 
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