K32 project

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Rick WW.

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I acquired a non recessed, non pinned, Model 15-6 with the heavier barrel. I now have the above model 15's barrel removed and cylinder and crane out. I made up the frame blocks and barrel bushing for the removal, seemed to work ok without any trouble.

I would like a 32 caliber K frame revolver. Is it possible to use an older recessed 22lr cylinder(early K22) in this frame? The 22lr cylinder would be updated to 32cal. I suspect that the rear extractor established basic headspace, and I can see the two being different height about the star. Just wondering if at all feasible, or should look for another M15 that is pinned/recessed sometime.

regards,

Rick WW.
 
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Yeah, you are going to bore out the 22 chamber any way. You will want to ream the cylinder and extractor at the same time.
 
I bought a clunker K22 6" barrel with a bulge near the muzzle on the cheap, exterior is nice, but did have the bulge. I used a piloted drill and straight chucking reamers to ready for the liner.

I took off the existing forcing cone to allow the liner to feature a short piece of 1/2" that mimics the old forcing cone area without having a line in the open.

I have a jig made up for the rechambering/reboring of the cylinder from a 22 squirrel project that was all pinned/recessed stuff. I have enjoyed that pistol a lot, so looking over the fence at a 32 H&R perhaps.

The issue is that with the old K22 cylinder in the newer frame, the hammer will only cock to 3/4 full length and stops. If I remove the yoke and hold the K22 cylinder slightly ahead, things are more better, hammer moves full length and cylinder indexes.

Just a novice in the dark about the positioning of the cylinder within frames.
 
Really the only difference SHOULD be the stop on the side of the frame that keeps the cylinder from falling off the crane when the gun is open. From the end of the cylinder to the frame should be pretty close.


I replaced the flame cut non-recessed cylinder in my 29-3 with a recessed one from an earlier 29 and that's the only thing I had to modify.
 
I was fortunate to acquire a NOS K-32 barrel to work with when I did my 32 build. As for the cylinder, I had a Model 17 cylinder shaved off in back to match the non-recessed cylinder from my Model 14-3 donor gun, then had it reamed to 32 S&W Long. That duplicates the original configuration and matches up with the existing frame lug as well.

By the way, why are you lining the barrel instead of just having it rebored to .313" groove diameter? Unless it has a huge bulge, the rebore should eliminate the old damage.

You might want to do a search for the thread where I discussed my build... it went on for quite some time and has lots of good info in it.

Froggie

PS Here are two threads about my Faux Model 16-3,

Rechambering a cylinder*Update*

My Faux K-32 is Here!
 
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I am hoping for something that resembles the Model 16 when refinished up a little. The original K32's are a bit stout for me $.

So I am working with old K22 parts(taken off pinned recessed revolvers by parts vendors) and a newish Model 15 frame I bought locally that is not pinned/not recessed.

Probably went off half cocked on the newish 15, one of those lets give it a try sorta deal, paying some dues now, but good thing is to learn for me, hard on me; but fun. I have a spare pinned/recessed M15 frame that the old K22 cylinder and 6" barrel will line up in other than barrel timing/forcing cone distance etc............so have that way out, but still trying to understand if nothing else the differences I have run into.

I know that a lot of reboring guys are slowing down some, read some turn around times, and to be honest my health will not allow me that type of time. Just the way it is.

The relining barrel gig was doable in my own little area and tooling, so the K22 barrel with 32 liner donor is done other than final trimming on both ends, and of course reblueing, not new barrel by any means. It was swelled in the middle that I could feel with a tight patch, but could not feel with my touch on the exterior. Price was right(less than 20 bucks) and I was self contained for the 32 cal update barrel(old K22 6" donor).

Thanks for the thought about shaving the rear of the old K22 cylinder. I might ask please, if the shave is across the total diameter of the cylinder or across the board and....the star recess? I have not compared thicknesses of old stars, so the thought about the star recess.......and repinning?

I had hoped for the original 32 S&W Long, but found a reamer for the 32 H&R Mag for a 1/3 of the price of the Long. I have wondered about that logic some, shoots both, but not exactly what you wanted for 40 years....... :) ...one of those when in Rome deals.

I have observed several links in this forum as to K32 clones being built up, a lot of helpful info to the new guy. So far those builds are pinned/recessed parts; not a mix like I am trying. I will be perusing the link you gave me, thanks for taking the time for my query.

regards,

Rick WW.
 
Rick WW. said:
I am hoping for something that resembles the Model 16 when refinished up a little. The original K32's are a bit stout for me $.

So I am working with old K22 parts(taken off pinned recessed revolvers by parts vendors) and a newish Model 15 frame I bought locally that is not pinned/not recessed.

Probably went off half cocked on the newish 15, one of those lets give it a try sorta deal, paying some dues now, but good thing is to learn for me, hard on me; but fun. I have a spare pinned/recessed M15 frame that the old K22 cylinder and 6" barrel will line up in other than barrel timing/forcing cone distance etc............so have that way out, but still trying to understand if nothing else the differences I have run into.

I know that a lot of reboring guys are slowing down some, read some turn around times, and to be honest my health will not allow me that type of time. Just the way it is.

The relining barrel gig was doable in my own little area and tooling, so the K22 barrel with 32 liner donor is done other than final trimming on both ends, and of course reblueing, not new barrel by any means. It was swelled in the middle that I could feel with a tight patch, but could not feel with my touch on the exterior. Price was right(less than 20 bucks) and I was self contained for the 32 cal update barrel(old K22 6" donor).

Thanks for the thought about shaving the rear of the old K22 cylinder. I might ask please, if the shave is across the total diameter of the cylinder or across the board and....the star recess? I have not compared thicknesses of old stars, so the thought about the star recess.......and repinning?

I had hoped for the original 32 S&W Long, but found a reamer for the 32 H&R Mag for a 1/3 of the price of the Long. I have wondered about that logic some, shoots both, but not exactly what you wanted for 40 years....... :) ...one of those when in Rome deals.

I have observed several links in this forum as to K32 clones being built up, a lot of helpful info to the new guy. So far those builds are pinned/recessed parts; not a mix like I am trying. I will be perusing the link you gave me, thanks for taking the time for my query.

regards,

Rick WW.
Click to expand...

Rick,

The secret is all about dimensions...just make your new cyl the same as the original cyl in all dimensions to simplify the swap. It's that simple.

You can use the 32 H&R Mag reamer to ream for 32 Long, just ream no deeper than the correct chamber length to the case mouth shoulder for the 32L.

If the reduced diameter of the throat cutting front end of the reamer (following the pilot shaft), does not cut all the way thru to the front of the cyl, which it may not, then grind a recessed cannalure at the juncture of the throat cutting blades and the chamber cutting blades, so you don't cut the shoulder in the chamber too deep.

You may also need to grind away the largest diameter cutters at the back end of the reamer that cut the chamber recesses. Otherwise your headspace will be too great. The original 38 cyl does not have recessed chambers. When you face off the rear of the 22 cyl, with the star installed in the cy, go all the way from the outer cyl edge to the hub of the star ratchet.

If you want recessed chambers for the 32, do not face off the rear 22 cyl face, but you will have to change to a K22 frame lug on the left side of the frame in the bottom right hand corner of the cyl window; albeit not a big deal.
 
My sincere thanks for all the comments on my problem with my K32 clone project, they are much appreciated one and all........:)

I think I can get thru the basic machining operations for relining the K22 barrel to 32 cal, tis done almost other than final trimming.

My biggest obstacle that I have not gotten past, is that when I use the non pinned M15-6 frame with my old K22 cylinder and its yoke/crane is that the cylinder will enter the frame ok and lock up. When I try to full cock position the K22 cylinder moves probably 90% of the required distance in rotation, and the hammer will not lock in the full single action cocked position.

almost like the hand is not in the right alignment with the rachet and is binding.

If I remove the K22 yoke and reinsert the K22 cylinder into the non pinned frame..........and move the cylinder slightly ahead things get better, cylinder moves to the next notch ok, and the hammer cocks at full movement.

Maybe tomorrow will just try to use the ejector rod, star without cylinder and see what is going on............yeah, I know; long shot.

When I put this set of K22 cylinder and yoke in another pinned K frame.............works like it oughta which I guess should be really.

I just am having a hard time figuring out what the binding is. I know that the rachets are different in recessed and non recessed, one is thicker for headspace nuiances; but just slow in understanding what is what here.

Easy way out is to build the K32 on the old pinned frame and be done with it, but if I did that I would always be wondering why did the other not work out?.......:)
 
Rick WW. said:
My biggest obstacle that I have not gotten past, is that when I use the non pinned M15-6 frame with my old K22 cylinder and its yoke/crane is that the cylinder will enter the frame ok and lock up. When I try to full cock position the K22 cylinder moves probably 90% of the required distance in rotation, and the hammer will not lock in the full single action cocked position.

almost like the hand is not in the right alignment with the rachet and is binding.

If I remove the K22 yoke and reinsert the K22 cylinder into the non pinned frame..........and move the cylinder slightly ahead things get better, cylinder moves to the next notch ok, and the hammer cocks at full movement.

Maybe tomorrow will just try to use the ejector rod, star without cylinder and see what is going on............yeah, I know; long shot.

When I put this set of K22 cylinder and yoke in another pinned K frame.............works like it oughta which I guess should be really.

I just am having a hard time figuring out what the binding is. I know that the rachets are different in recessed and non recessed, one is thicker for headspace nuiances; but just slow in understanding what is what here.

Easy way out is to build the K32 on the old pinned frame and be done with it, but if I did that I would always be wondering why did the other not work out?.......:)
Click to expand...

Rick,

#1 You only have 90% cyl carry up which indicates a hand that's too short but you can't fully cock the hammer in SA which indicates a hand that's too long. That's a strange contradiction.

#2 Rule of thumb: The greater the difference in the vintage of frame from parts you're trying to mate, the greater the chance of slight differences in dimensions to complicate matters. But that doesn't mean you can't make them work.

What vintage pinned barrel Mod 15 do you have? What vintage is the K22 cyl?

3. I would always use the hand from the K22 if you have it, that matches the wear on the K22 cyl. And use the original Yoke (crane is for Colts) from the 15-6. It's usually easier to fit a cyl to a different yoke than fit a different yoke to a frame.

4. You should start by measuring parts. For example, is there a difference in the star protrusion from the rear face of the cyl? Best way to measure is measure the two cyl bodies including the star but w/o the front gas ring, then measure just the cyl bodies and subtract from the 1st measurement on both cyls and compare them. This tells you a lot.

You need to do some checking and maybe machining/fitting of cyl to frame before you worry about the timing; do that last.
 
My old K22 bulged beater barrel's vintage is unknown to me, bought loose fwiw. The cylinder is the old style recessed with left hand threads on the rod, bought loose separately from the barrel years ago.

I thought the lack of full movement of the hammer was related to the lack of full movement of the cylinder or vice versa. If I could just get another 5% of movement on the hammer, the cylinder I think would go into place, which kinda suggests too long a hand(binding at maximum stroke?) to me, but only novice here.

I am tending to agree that there may be something with the hand ratchet mechanical interface. The matching K22 hand is not available to me. I do have some older K frame hands that I could experiment with tomorrow or so.

There are some visual axial length differences in the two rear star extractors(k22 and M15), hence my comment on thicker. The M15 cylinder sits further ahead in the frame than the K22, I assume the difference in recessed/not recessed.

I am under the impression that the inner circular surface of the star establishes basic headspace.

Not there yet, but chugging along.................oddly I can accomplish the other skills but cannot figure out the short movement in the hammer with the old new parts together...:)
 
The rear face of the ratchet teeth against the recess in the recoil shield and the yoke axis inside the cyl ctr hole maintain whatever head space is created be the rear face of the cyl when you're fitting a new cyl.

If the replacement cyl has fore and aft movement on the yoke axis, that must be shimmed first to eliminate it or very nearly. Then gauge the headspace with the new cyl installed, and face off the K22 cyl untill the correct space is achieved:

My .32 un-recessed cyl has a headspace of .062" and must be measured with a feeler gauge at the firing pin hole. The .32 has .050" for the rim and .012" actual net headspace. It's close to the .38 whose rims can run up to .007" thicker and still work in the .060 to .064" range. It's not as critical as in rifles.
 
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I have been reading about several builds of a K32 clone here, kinda jealous my project is bogged down.

I am familar with the little circular shims for the yoke and the ejector rod area for endshake.

I believe that the headspace is an established number via the little circle of steel on the rear of the star extractor, ie fixed. I am not familiar with any shims to alter this dimension via the star extractor.

I have built up a revolver or two on the K series, but always the older parts. No problem really, made a 22 squirrel, 22 Mink, and a 224 Harvey Kay Chuk. So somewhat familiar with reaming and headspace/endshake procedures........but in this case, obviously not enough....:)

My old k22 cylinder sits far to the rear of the M15-6's frame window, tis a recessed thing I guess as compared to the newer unrecessed cylinders that are space further ahead. I find that without the yoke, the inserted cylinder pulled very slightly ahead, allows normal movement of hammer/cylinder.......almost as if the hand cannot get to its final position because the star is too close, just conjecture on my part right now.

I am not anywhere near to tackling reaming of the cylinder etc until I can get it to cock and index like it should. Frustrating that the movement is only about 90% and quits dead. Guess all of it is just something it thinks it needs to enlighten me about and humble me I reckon.

The headspace, that I have not measured yet as is, looks way short. So machining the rear of the cylinder does not do much for me yet, as the extractor rear face establishes ratchet distance from the firing pin area. Almost like I need a shim under the extractor to push said extractor out some from the cylinder proper, but not so keen on that.

So still stumbling around in the dark here, but today is the day as a famous fellow once said..............staying after it. I thought maybe with all the builds of k32 clones here that the problem(short stroke) I have was already addressed one way or another, lots of knowledge here just by reading some of the more detailed threads...........

I could just change the build to a pinned K frame laying here, tis the easy way out, but learn nothing.
 
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Rick WW. said:
I have been reading about several builds of a K32 clone here, kinda jealous my project is bogged down.

I am familar with the little circular shims for the yoke and the ejector rod area for endshake.

I believe that the headspace is an established number via the little circle of steel on the rear of the star extractor, ie fixed. I am not familiar with any shims to alter this dimension via the star extractor.

I have built up a revolver or two on the K series, but always the older parts. No problem really, made a 22 squirrel, 22 Mink, and a 224 Harvey Kay Chuk. So somewhat familiar with reaming and headspace/endshake procedures........but in this case, obviously not enough....:)

My old k22 cylinder sits far to the rear of the M15-6's frame window, tis a recessed thing I guess as compared to the newer unrecessed cylinders that are space further ahead. I find that without the yoke, the inserted cylinder pulled very slightly ahead, allows normal movement of hammer/cylinder.......almost as if the hand cannot get to its final position because the star is too close, just conjecture on my part right now.

I am not anywhere near to tackling reaming of the cylinder etc until I can get it to cock and index like it should. Frustrating that the movement is only about 90% and quits dead. Guess all of it is just something it thinks it needs to enlighten me about and humble me I reckon.

The headspace, that I have not measured yet as is, looks way short. So machining the rear of the cylinder does not do much for me yet, as the extractor rear face establishes ratchet distance from the firing pin area. Almost like I need a shim under the extractor to push said extractor out some from the cylinder proper, but not so keen on that.

So still stumbling around in the dark here, but today is the day as a famous fellow once said..............staying after it. I thought maybe with all the builds of k32 clones here that the problem(short stroke) I have was already addressed one way or another, lots of knowledge here just by reading some of the more detailed threads...........

I could just change the build to a pinned K frame laying here, tis the easy way out, but learn nothing.
Click to expand...

Rick,

Shims are not needed or used for a new assembled revolver and may not be needed in yours. But besides installing a used replacement cyl, you may have to contend with some wear and also adapting to the .38 yoke, so if there's any "cyl end shake", that must be dealt with first.

The star 'ratchet' teeth are what make contact with the recoil shield to maintain a "fixed" headspace. There's no contact with the steel circle of the extractor star. When you closely examine the contact surface of the recoil shield, you'll see contact marks from the teeth, not the circle of steel. This is particularly evident on a well used revolver.

You never want to install shims under the extractor star, that doesn't work. Any shortage of the teeth not reaching the recoil shield will be corrected when you face off the recessed part of the 22 cyl, and establish the new headspace for the .32 rim.

Once that's done, then you can address fitting the hand. Albeit, your problems may go away once the cyl is properly fit.
 
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Chris,

Gorgeous! Especially with the 1st style K frame short action target hammer.
A true anachronism.

It appears to have a very small headspace. Are your cylinder chambers recessed?
 
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Ght

Hondo44 said:
Agreed!

Albeit, yours may be the only one recessed as near as I can determine!
Click to expand...

Au contraire. My Project 616 has recessed chambers! It was easier to countersink the chambers than face off the rear of the cylinder, and applied to a no dash 66, the frame lug was already right! :cool:

Froggie
 
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