K38, V-prefix serial, United States Property marked

[CapeFearElvis]

Alan gave you the straight scoop. I can't disagree with anything he wrote.


Not really, but close. As reddog81 pointed out, it definitely is not a K-38. Yes, it is chambered for a .38 caliber cartridge (in this case the .38 S&W, not the .38 Special) and it is built on the K size frame. But that does not make it a K-38. The K-38 Masterpiece was always a target sight revolver and in 1942, those were not being made. Nor did the K-38 ever carry a V prefix serial number.

Added. Others have noted the inspector stamp. GHD are the initials of Colonel (later Brigadier General) Guy H. Drewry. He was the chief of the Springfield Ordnance Depot during WWII.

As I understand things (after all the help and a bit more research), the K38 descended from the Model 10, and the Model 10 premiered after the war and descended from the "Victory" model. Is that close?

Frankly, I didn't know what to call this revolver, but it appears that .38/200 British Service Revolver is correct.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

.38 S & W - case length 0.767", diameter 0.3855", bullet diameter 0.361".
.38 Special - 1.115", 0.379", and 0.357", respectively.

The usual postwar modification (for US sales primarily) was to ream the .38 S & W length charge holes to .38 Special. This would make the Special case the correct length but too narrow, and in theory the bullets too small. Bulged or split brass is the rule with these conversions.

More great info! I've already pulled my reloading books out to see the actual differences in the cartridges. My 5/8 down the cylinder and 3/8" for the 38spl hanging out the cylinder were very crude estimates based on my recollection from the cleaning it received early yesterday morning before the photos were taken for my records.

 

[JP@AK]

As I understand things . . . the K38 descended from the Model 10, and the Model 10 premiered after the war and descended from the "Victory" model. Is that close?

Yes, it is close. The K frame was introduced in 1899, chambered for either the brand new .38 S&W Special or the .32-20 Winchester cartridge. They were made side by side until c. 1930, when S&W ceased making the .32-20 (it stayed in the catalog until 1940). The .38 version and the .32-20 version were serialized in completely different serial sequences. Fewer than 145,000 .32-20s were made.

The vast majority had fixed sights, but a relatively small percentage of them had adjustable sights and are referred to as Military & Police Target models. Those with fixed sights were simply called the Military & Police model.

During WWII, only the fixed sight models were in production and they were sold stateside (for the military and related agencies) chambered for the .38 Special and for the UK chambered for the .38 S&W (AKA .38/200). Beginning in April, 1942, military production units got the V prefix until January, 1944, when an internal change was made, resulting in a new SV prefix. Military guns produced after late December, 1944, carried the SV prefix in the same serial range as the V prefix. The highest number shipped to the Navy left the factory on August 13, 1945, and it carried serial number SV802722. When the war ended, M&Ps were shipped to civilian locations, beginning in February, 1946. All of the early units carried either the SV prefix or a simple S prefix. That ended in March, 1948, with the production of revolver number S999999. M&P production continued after that with a new serial series beginning with the letter C. They were first marked as Model 10 in 1958, more than a decade after WWII ended.

The following is slightly over-simplified, but after WWII, the fixed sight and target models were split off with separate model designations. The fixed sight units were still called Military & Police. Those with target sights were called the K-38 Masterpiece and had 6" barrels. These revolvers were serialized in a new sequence, leading with a K prefix (the K indicating target sights, in contrast to the M&P with its S and C prefixes).

The chart that snw19_357 displayed was used internally by the company. Fixed sight guns were never marketed as the K-38. They were always listed as M&Ps in the catalog, in the All Model Circular, on the box labels and in advertizing outside the company.

Now you know more than you probably wanted to.

I didn't know what to call this revolver, but it appears that .38/200 British Service Revolver is correct.

That is correct.

 

[Muley Gil]

As I understand things (after all the help and a bit more research), the K38 descended from the Model 10, and the Model 10 premiered after the war and descended from the "Victory" model. Is that close?

Frankly, I didn't know what to call this revolver, but it appears that .38/200 British Service Revolver is correct.

This as a simplified progression of the mid frame .38 revolvers:

In 1899, S&W introduced the .38 K frame revolver. It was slightly modified with the addition of the ejector rod lug in 1902. The model name was the .38 Military & Police. The lock work was modified in 1905. This basic model was built until 1941-42.

When the US Government needed many .38 revolvers, the commercial finish was dropped and the sandblasted finish was substituted. S&W had contracted with the British government to build a submachine gun, but this design didn't pan out. The company was allowed to provide revolvers chambered in .38 S&W in lieu of the ill fated subguns. Most of the British revolvers had 5" barrels, while the revolvers built for the US had 4" barrels and were chambered in .38 special.

After WW II, S&W went back to commercial finishes. A new short action was introduced in 1948. In 1957, the company added model numbers to their firearms. Thus, the .38 Military & Police was also called the Model 10.

 

[jeffrefrig]

That's a nice revolver, for sure, but the holster was mentioned above this post. Is that a brand new one from the Army/Navy Surplus store? That's a nice for woods & field workouts.

 

[DWalt]

Only a very, very small number of the wartime revolvers were phosphated (Parkerized). About one week's production. Very early production BSRs were finished in the pre-war civilian blue style with highly polished metal. That was a very slow and inefficient process. They also used civilian checkered wood grips with silver medallions. Under pressure to greatly increase production, S&W ceased polishing and went to a wire brush metal treatment, then to a bead blast treatment, and that is what was used on the vast majority of ALL WWII M&P revolver production. The blued finish used on them was completely unlike the pre-war S&W finish. It used a hot liquid bluing bath, very similar to the way most guns are blued today. It was called Black Magic, sometimes referred to as Military Midnight Black. The Australians did use a phosphate finish when their revolvers were overhauled in the 1950s.

.38/200 was somewhat of a slang or shorthand term for BSRs, not as an official name for either the revolver or its ammunition. But it was widely used. For that matter, "Victory" and "BSR" were not used as official names either.

All this has been discussed here in detail many times previously.

 

[nutsforsmiths]

As mentioned, I too believe the barrel just has some rough tool marks because of how quickly these were being pumped out during war time.

I have a Victory model made in 1942 and the frame shows some not too well buffed tool marks.

I have 2 BSR that I reload 38 S&W for, along with an Enfield No.2 Mk I*. Its a fun cartridge to shoot at the range.

 

[rct269]

Are the holsters hard to come by?

I don't know beans from apple butter about the holsters! I do know the difference between collectibles and junk. I learned from one of THE collectors---Ray Cheely. The difference is three things:

CONDITION---CONDITION-----and CONDITION!!!

The reason I told you to count your blessings for the holster is because of its condition.

Any and everything that looks like it's new, or damn near new is what you want to take home with you-----including even G.I. holsters---if such as that is your interest---and every now and then even if it isn't.

The best example I have of why is a prolonged dry spell when I couldn't find the S&W's I was after. I was moaning and groaning about that to a Ruger collector friend---very likely THE Ruger collector in the whole country--and he posed an interesting question: "Why don't you try Rugers for a spell?"

So I did. I collected 3 screw single actions (my favorites)---ended up with each and every one of them over 7 years---and when I say each and every, I'm talking about every model in every caliber in every barrel length---34 guns in all---spent maybe $20,000 on them over those 7 years----don't really know.

Then there came a time when I was running out of room in my display case, and something had to go. It wasn't going to be any of my S&W's! Off I go to David Carroll's with my Rugers to have him get rid of them. Now David didn't know all that much about Rugers, but he knew folks who did----and they said those 34 guns would very likely fetch upwards of $40,000, maybe a bit more----and I was a happy camper!

Now David is very likely way up at the top of the collectible firearms dealers list somewhere---suggesting he knows how to sell this stuff, especially stuff in top condition, which seemed to be his specialty------including even Rugers. So--when all was said and done, those 34 Rugers (all in top condition) fetched in the mid 50's---and I was an even happier camper!

CONDITION--CONDITION--CONDITION!!!

The bottom line of all this condition business is top condition collectibles either hold their value or appreciate over time. Lesser condition items depreciate.

Are guns (or their accessories) a good investment? Not particularly, compared to other options; but that isn't why we bought them in the first place. We bought them to have them and to enjoy having them.

A top condition collectible is to be admired----never mind what it is.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Retired W4]

If you think the war time produced "Victory" models look rough you should see what the late war Jap pistols look like. They were trying to get as many weapons in the hands of their fighters as fast as they could. WW II S&W revolvers are fine machines in spite of some problems in the factory. My mid-war Navy contract was well cared for during it's service in the war, and after. And it's a beauty queen compared to what we faced in the pacific. There was a war going on and we did not have time for finely polished exteriors.

 

[murphydog]

Only a very, very small number of the wartime revolvers were phosphated (Parkerized). About one week's production. Very early production BSRs were finished in the pre-war civilian blue style with highly polished metal. That was a very slow and inefficient process. They also used civilian checkered wood grips with silver medallions. Under pressure to greatly increase production, S&W ceased polishing and went to a wire brush metal treatment, then to a bead blast treatment, and that is what was used on the vast majority of ALL WWII M&P revolver production. The blued finish used on them was completely unlike the pre-war S&W finish. It used a hot liquid bluing bath, very similar to the way most guns are blued today. It was called Black Magic, sometimes referred to as Military Midnight Black. The Australians did use a phosphate finish when their revolvers were overhauled in the 1950s.

.38/200 was somewhat of a slang or shorthand term for BSRs, not as an official name for either the revolver or its ammunition. But it was widely used. For that matter, "Victory" and "BSR" were not used as official names either.

All this has been discussed here in detail many times previously.

The SCSW mentions nearly all WW II Victory Models being finished "similar to Parkerizing". Do you have a reference to document these being blued?

 

[MelvinWalker]

The SCSW mentions nearly all WW II Victory Models being finished "similar to Parkerizing". Do you have a reference to document these being blued?

Yeah, I thought "Black Magic" was simply a proprietary manganese phosphate finish itself. "Parkerizing" was a trademark to the inventor of the process and thus couldn't be used as a term by S&W?

 

[CapeFearElvis]

The V prefix guns started production in April 1942 and production ended in 1945. Very similar guns in the commercial SN series (with the phosphate finish) were made starting in 1941, and the very last military contract guns were very similar to early postwar examples, but the latter resumed the blued finish and omitted the butt swivel (lanyard ring).

I found this in my Blue Book of Gun Values (43rd ed) that mentions a "Black Magic" finish. This pistol looks parkerized to me; could it be the Black Magic finish??

 

[CapeFearElvis]

I do know the difference between collectibles and junk. I learned from one of THE collectors---Ray Cheely. The difference is three things:

CONDITION---CONDITION-----and CONDITION!!!

The reason I told you to count your blessings for the holster is because of its condition.

Any and everything that looks like it's new, or damn near new is what you want to take home with you-----including even G.I. holsters---if such as that is your interest---and every now and then even if it isn't.

CONDITION--CONDITION--CONDITION!!!

The bottom line of all this condition business is top condition collectibles either hold their value or appreciate over time. Lesser condition items d

A top condition collectible is to be admired----never mind what it is.

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old, however, I've been corrected that it's likely a British holster.

There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

 

[murphydog]

Yeah, I thought "Black Magic" was simply a proprietary manganese phosphate finish itself. "Parkerizing" was a trademark to the inventor of the process and thus couldn't be used as a term by S&W?

That is my understanding but always open to learning.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

That's a nice revolver, for sure, but the holster was mentioned above this post. Is that a brand new one from the Army/Navy Surplus store? That's a nice for woods & field workouts.

Not that I know of. This pistol has been in this holster for decades prior to their nearly 90 year-old owner passing in recent months...

 

[murphydog]

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old. There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

In general the US military didn't use canvas holsters. Many cows sacrificed for the war effort.

This one reminds me of the "pattern 37 Enfield" holster, or a similar one made to fit the longer barreled S & W.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

Only a very, very small number of the wartime revolvers were phosphated (Parkerized). About one week's production. Very early production BSRs were finished in the pre-war civilian blue style with highly polished metal. That was a very slow and inefficient process. They also used civilian checkered wood grips with silver medallions. Under pressure to greatly increase production, S&W ceased polishing and went to a wire brush metal treatment, then to a bead blast treatment, and that is what was used on the vast majority of ALL WWII M&P revolver production. The blued finish used on them was completely unlike the pre-war S&W finish. It used a hot liquid bluing bath, very similar to the way most guns are blued today. It was called Black Magic, sometimes referred to as Military Midnight Black. The Australians did use a phosphate finish when their revolvers were overhauled in the 1950s.

.38/200 was somewhat of a slang or shorthand term for BSRs, not as an official name for either the revolver or its ammunition. But it was widely used. For that matter, "Victory" and "BSR" were not used as official names either.

All this has been discussed here in detail many times previously.

These two photos came from the 43rd edition of Blue Book of Gun Values. One mentions Black Magic, the other parkerizing:

 

[MelvinWalker]

Thank you, Ralph! Nice hit on the resale of the pistols too!

This holster looks to be USGI, and it is old. There is a stamp inside the flap, but it's time-faded, and I can't make out what it said. Here are a couple of photos of the holster alone:

It looks like a standard British/UK issued holster for a Webley or Victory to me.

The clip set-up on the rear of the holster is for a British web belt not USGI.

 

[CapeFearElvis]

This one reminds me of the "pattern 37 Enfield" holster, or a similar one made to fit the longer barreled S & W.

Wow! It sure does look like the pattern 37 gear! Here's the link I'm looking at:
British Commonwealth Pattern 37 Webbing (1940s – 1950s) | KommandoPost.com | KPS Militaria Collection

 

[CapeFearElvis]

It looks like a standard British/UK issued holster for a Webley or Victory to me.

The clip set-up on the rear of the holster is for a British web belt not USGI.

You're right. Alan set me straight above.