Knife vs Gun - 21 Foot Rule

[Gamecock]

Is the knife wielder at 21 feet a skilled knife fighter? Or a drunk with a knife?

Michael Janich is the most dangerous man I've ever seen on television. I would rather face any man with a gun than him with a knife.

"Knife in hand, you can close and disembowel someone before they can get their weapon out of the holster."

A skilled knife fighter is not going to go for your guts. That's Hollywood stuff. He'll slice a bicep and then a quad. You'll be a helpless heap on the ground. Before you can blink.

Duckford is correct. With the caveat that the knife wielder is skilled.

On a similar note, an arrow is far more dangerous than a bullet from a handgun. Broadhead hunting arrows are diabolically deadly.

 

[Old TexMex]

The OODA loop is more important than the generalization of the "21ft rule".
For me, personally I'm more inclined towards the rule "If you don't spot the trap, you gotta go through the ****".

 

[Mister X]

Is the knife wielder at 21 feet a skilled knife fighter? Or a drunk with a knife?

Michael Janich is the most dangerous man I've ever seen on television. I would rather face any man with a gun than him with a knife.

"Knife in hand, you can close and disembowel someone before they can get their weapon out of the holster."

A skilled knife fighter is not going to go for your guts. That's Hollywood stuff. He'll slice a bicep and then a quad. You'll be a helpless heap on the ground. Before you can blink.

That's a very strong statement and somewhat absurd. What factual information are you basing your opinions on? Show me real world incidents where mechanical/disabling cuts have actually been applied and were effective.

 

[Kanewpadle]

That's a very strong statement and somewhat absurd. What factual information are you basing your opinions on? Show me real world incidents where mechanical/disabling cuts have actually been applied and were effective.

What he says is true. Simple research will provide proof that it is.

An inexperienced person with a knife will try to get in close and stab/slash wildly.

A person that knows what he's doing will disable you with his knife first. Then finish you off if he so chooses.

Hence, most people that carry knifes don't count on them for self defense.

Go to YouTube and watch Mike Janich's videos.

 

[Mister X]

What he says is true. Simple research will provide proof that it is.

An inexperienced person with a knife will try to get in close and stab/slash wildly.

A person that knows what he's doing will disable you with his knife first. Then finish you off if he so chooses.

Hence, most people that carry knifes don't count on them for self defense.

Go to YouTube and watch Mike Janich's videos.

I understand his point and know Mike's MBC material well. I've have trained in FMA's and other knife systems for 3 decades. Show me proof, not theory is my point. There are no professional or experienced knife fighters outside of prison.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Stumbled on to this video and just wanted to share. It shows just how dangerous an attacker with a knife can be to someone within distance of less than 21ft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM

Good video. As stated by others the 21 foot rule is often misquoted. The 21 foot rule is more of a reference point than anything else. Tueller could just as well said 22 feet.

Unfortunately many people can't or don't practice moving while drawing and empty handed skills.

This video illustrates my point.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8[/ame]

 

[STCM(SW)]

So let me get this straight.
I have no chance with a BG with a knife who is drunk/high on drugs if I only have a handgun of major caliber......

 

[Kanewpadle]

I understand his point and know Mike's MBC material well. I've have trained in FMA's and other knife systems for 3 decades. Show me proof, not theory is my point. There are no professional or experienced knife fighters outside of prison.

What? No experienced or professional knife fighter outside of prison? Then who is Mike Janich?

And if you've been studying knife craft for 30 years, how much more proof do you need? Because of your experience, WE should be asking YOU for proof.

 

[spad124]

Simply not true in my opinion. I've spent 30 studying the blade arts and only a fraction of that time extensively studying the finer points of using the handgun in close quarters, but give me the handgun anytime, at any distance, in any situation. The issue is one of underestimating and failing to understand the dynamics of the knife as a weapon. Now there could be specific contact/CQ scenarios where mobility is limited in which I would rather have to defend against a gun vs a blade if I were unarmed, but that's about it. For my own weapon, I'd always chose a handgun.

I've fenced on and off for the last 40 years. There are fencers I know who would have no problem against someone with a handgun. The principal problem for the handgunner is hitting a moving target. How many times have you read about LEOs who empty their Glocks and only 2-3 bullets hit the assailant? Someone trained in blade use is moving and fast. Most handgun users aren't as fast because they are concerned with keeping a two handed grip and aiming.

I'm old and slow now comparatively, but I still have the eye/hand coordination so that I don't have to aim my blade, it goes where I want it to.

 

[Kanewpadle]

So let me get this straight.
I have no chance with a BG with a knife who is drunk/high on drugs if I only have a handgun of major caliber......

Nope. Not a chance. His bad breath will have you down and out at 21 feet.

 

[Mister X]

Way too much generalizing on this thread. Context is everything. Is the fight in a phone booth, then I might give the blade the edge, but that too depends on the individuals involved. A big, strong athletic guy drilled in extensive counter-blade via FoF training with a concealed pistol vs a smaller, slower middle age guy with a blade with 10 years of FMA or MBC, then I would probably give the advantage first guy irregardless of the setting or distance, but much depends on how the initial contact is initiated.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Way too much generalizing on this thread. Context is everything. Is the fight in a phone booth, then I might give the blade the edge, but that too depends on the individuals involved. A big, strong athletic guy drilled in extensive counter-blade via FoF training with a concealed pistol vs a smaller, slower middle age guy with a blade with 10 years of FMA or MBC, then I would probably give the advantage first guy irregardless of the setting or distance, but much depends on how the initial contact is initiated.

Exactly, you just proved it. There are no hard and fast answers. There is no proof.

As with many other discussions about self defense, the statement "it depends" is usually the best answer because there are too many variables.

 

[Old TexMex]

All the first video shows is a bunch of idiots walking into a trap. That's the lesson. Are we pretending the Honduran guy is a " trained knife fighter"?
He's deranged, and the uniforms are fools.
Self defense? Remove yourself from the vacinity. Duty to arrest? Shoot him across the fence.

 

[Fastbolt]

Until you've been unlucky enough to have experienced someone seriously and earnestly trying their best to stab/gut you with a blade, this is often a subject of conjecture and theory. If you've been able to attend some applicable, relevant and properly done training, it's another 'what if' scenario that's hopefully addressed with the attention and seriousness it deserves.

Even realistic training can't really prepare you for experiencing the effects of the huge adrenaline dump, while trying function while experiencing the very real effects of a hormonal fear response. Someone's really trying to kill you.

In my case I had the slight advantage of having been training in various martial arts for approx 10 years, including practicing against non-gun weapons.

When it happened, if happened fast. Even with a verbalized threat of what the attacker in my case said he intended to do to me, the act itself seemed to take on a surreal and frightening speed. Fortunately, I was able to get away from the point of the blade and avoid the attacker's lunging sweep with his blade. The attacker was thrown off balance.

Looking at the video footage afterward, I shuddered to realize that if I'd been only a fraction of a second slower in creating distance, I'd not have avoided the blade. If I'd hesitated in the least, trying to consciously decide what to do, I have no doubt I'd have ended up with a 5-6" wooden-handled kitchen boning knife deep in my gut. (Yes, I still have a very clear visual of the attack, more than 30 years later, while typing this.)

In future situations (after I became a working cop), where I encountered someone brandishing and threatening with a blade, I never forgot that earlier lesson about creating distance and looking for a way to use not only distance, but any situational element (like furniture, parked car, etc), to my advantage.

Training may help prevent some folks from into 'brain lock' at the realization of an unexpected and immediate life threatening attack. Hopefully stop some folks from defaulting to the FREEZE part of the apparently 'hard-wired', FREEZE, FLIGHT or FIGHT response.

First, by helping provide an ingrained trained response appropriate to the situation, without having to stop and consciously think about what to do and how to do it, and then try to do it.

Secondly, by hopefully preparing someone to be able to effectively physically function even while experiencing the adrenaline dump, stress and fear response involved. It's been described as having applicable, realistic training help "inoculate" someone against some of the very real effects of sudden and severe stress.

Just my thoughts.

 

[GatorFarmer]

I would suggest killing a pig with a knife. Though a goat would work, a pig will be better owing to the squealing and the blood. Do that and you know more about a knife than most do.

It also may be beneficial to learn something simple, like the San Quentin prison rush. Last I knew, the Marines had adopted a version of it.

The folks I knew who had used knives did not focus on disabling extremities. They seemed to operate on the theory that violence of the initial attack would overcome potential resistance. Same as you don't shoot someone's arms first.

Many times Lynn Thompson was best taken with a grain of salt, but he was entirely correct in his assertion that decapitation and disembowelment tend to end altercations.

Most people assume they will be the one with the gun. Give some thought to being the one with the knife. Try a simple force on force drill with an airsoft gun versus a rolled up magazine.

 

[Gamecock]

Same as you don't shoot someone's arms first.

Different weapon, different tactics.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

THERE IS NO 21-FOOT RULE!

21 feet is an average maximum distance in a set-piece demonstration where the defender is guaranteed to be stabbed at least once.

 

[Packard]

THERE IS NO 21-FOOT RULE!

21 feet is an average maximum distance in a set-piece demonstration where the defender is guaranteed to be stabbed at least once.

But that is for a uniformed police officer, yes? For carry conceal you have to add for clearing the concealing garment.

I've thought about this for a while now. I wonder how useful this information is.

If the guy is 21 feet away and displaying a knife, then you'd think you'd have your hand on the butt of your gun at least. That would allow you to get off your first shot a bit quicker.

Or if he has the knife out and seems menacing you might have your weapon drawn--shaving more time off.

Or if he is really agitated you might have your target acquired shaving more time off. At some point you might have you trigger finger on the trigger instead of outside the trigger guard.

Of course if you don't know he has a knife, then the 21 foot rule is moot. You don't know he has a knife and you don't worry about a threat and you pay no attention to the 21 foot rule.

I wonder how many feet the rule would be if your weapon was out and aimed and your finger was on the trigger? 5 feet? 8 feet? 9 feet? 10? Certainly not 21 feet.

So if you don't know that they bad guy is carrying a knife (or a tire iron) you don't implement the 21 foot rule, and if you do know you have taken one or several of the preliminary steps making the rule much, much shorter (but how much we don't know because everyone is satisfied because we have the "21 foot rule").

I think that the 21 foot rule is useless information. We need all the footages based on what steps we have taken.

1. Carry concealed distance
2. Open carry distance (21 foot rule)
3. Hand on the butt of your gun distance.
4. Weapon drawn but pointed to the ground distance.
5. Weapon drawn and on aim distance (finger outside trigger guard).
6. Weapon drawn, on aim, finger on trigger distance.

Distances 1 and 2 seem fairly useless to me. It really suggests that you don't recognize that the bad guy is a threat.

Distances 3, 4, 5 and 6 seem to be useful to know. But I've never seen anything written on those scenarios.

 

[old&slow]

What about someone who can draw and fire 5 shots in less then 3/5 of a second with all five shots in the Ace of Spades at 7 yds?
It's been done several times.....

That I've got to see.

React .,, draw ,, and fire 5 shots ,, let alone hit a playing card at 7 yards,,, In 3/5 (.6) of a second..

I saw a live demo with Miculek, where he shot 6 shots in one second.. Gun in hand,, timed from the first shot to the last shot.. Ed McGivern shot 5 shots in 2/5 of a second in 1930's ,, but that was timed with gun in hand from first shot to last shot also..
I personally know one of the top 20 grand masters for open class in USPSA.. Race Holster ,, Race gun ,, one of the fastest kids I've ever seen ,, and I'll bet big bucks he can't do it..


Jerry Miculek ,, Ed McGivern ,, Bobby Leaham,, Bob Munden,, Jerry Barnhart ,, move over there's a new top gun in town..

 

[Packard]

That I've got to see.

React .,, draw ,, and fire 5 shots ,, let alone hit a playing card at 7 yards,,, In 3/5 (.6) of a second..

I saw a live demo with Miculek, where he shot 6 shots in one second.. Gun in hand,, timed from the first shot to the last shot.. Ed McGivern shot 5 shots in 2/5 of a second in 1930's ,, but that was timed with gun in hand from first shot to last shot also..
I personally know one of the top 20 grand masters for open class in USPSA.. Race Holster ,, Race gun ,, one of the fastest kids I've ever seen ,, and I'll bet big bucks he can't do it..


Jerry Miculek ,, Ed McGivern ,, Bobby Leaham,, Bob Munden,, Jerry Barnhart ,, move over there's a new top gun in town..

Even if it can be done, it really does not relate to me.

Because I cannot do it (and I suspect that very few members of this forum can either).