Is it possible to fly fish from inside a army tank ?
Kodiak Alaska, Self Defense
- Thread starter flyfishinjunkee
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Backlighting
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I would feel secure with this rig.
BearBio
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So much bravado and BS about bears! I am (was before I retired) certified by Department of the Interior in both bear spray AND firearm bear safety. One of my duties was teaching and certifying others in the use of bear spray. I have an MS in Animal Behavior with a thesis on black bear behavior.
ANY handgun (unless HIGHLY trained) is betting on luck. I was charged once and you will NOT have time for more than one shot (bluff charge that ended at 6-8 feet-I wasn't counting). If you have time for multiple shots, you will have a hard time explaining it to the warden.
I hung around with a guy from Canadian Forest Service at an Inter-Agency seminar on wolves and bears and I asked him what was the main take home point from Canadian bear attacks: he said that most guys had loaded (bullet in chamber) rifles still on their shoulders.
The Danish Sirius (dogsled) Patrols use Glock20's with hardcast or FMJ ammo. These guys patrol Greenland, out of reach of support, for 4-6 months on dogsleds! Polar bears may be a daily occurrence.
Spray is 92% effective in stopping attacks and guns (all sorts) are on 62% effective (older data but you get the point). I live on the edge of grizzly country and we are loaded with black bears (Most fatal attacks are by black bears!). That being said, I carry (1) spray AND (2) a 454 Casull, hot 45 long colt or a G20, any with hardcasts. I prefer the Underwood ammo because I have had poor quality with Buffalo Bore.
My advice, based on 20+ years as a wildlife biologist-take it or leave it!
ANY handgun (unless HIGHLY trained) is betting on luck. I was charged once and you will NOT have time for more than one shot (bluff charge that ended at 6-8 feet-I wasn't counting). If you have time for multiple shots, you will have a hard time explaining it to the warden.
I hung around with a guy from Canadian Forest Service at an Inter-Agency seminar on wolves and bears and I asked him what was the main take home point from Canadian bear attacks: he said that most guys had loaded (bullet in chamber) rifles still on their shoulders.
The Danish Sirius (dogsled) Patrols use Glock20's with hardcast or FMJ ammo. These guys patrol Greenland, out of reach of support, for 4-6 months on dogsleds! Polar bears may be a daily occurrence.
Spray is 92% effective in stopping attacks and guns (all sorts) are on 62% effective (older data but you get the point). I live on the edge of grizzly country and we are loaded with black bears (Most fatal attacks are by black bears!). That being said, I carry (1) spray AND (2) a 454 Casull, hot 45 long colt or a G20, any with hardcasts. I prefer the Underwood ammo because I have had poor quality with Buffalo Bore.
My advice, based on 20+ years as a wildlife biologist-take it or leave it!
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Echo40
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I mean no disrespect towards your profession nor do I have any doubt in your expertise on the subject, but if I were going into bear county, then I'm bringing a gun. Period.
I'm sure that spray is plenty effective, but frankly I already know what to expect with firearms, and therefore I am confident in my ability to defend myself with a gun. I've shot guns before chambered in all different cartridges, have learned how to operate all of my firearms precisely, including what to do if something goes wrong. I have no such experience with Bear Spray. I've never even held a can of the stuff before, so I don't even know how to deploy the stuff, much less how the stream behaves in flight, what its effective range is, nor how it behaves in flight, especially in the presence of heavy wind.
It has nothing to do with bravado, it all comes down to experience, and I have none with Bear Spray, ergo I prefer to stick to what I know, what I'm confident with, and what I'm proficient with. Besides, in a pinch, I would prefer a potentially lethal weapon to a strictly nonlethal weapon, because on the off chance that I encounter one of the 8% of bears that don't stop after receiving a spray to the face, I know that they won't respond quite as well to a free blast to the face with a powerful gun.
I'm sure that spray is plenty effective, but frankly I already know what to expect with firearms, and therefore I am confident in my ability to defend myself with a gun. I've shot guns before chambered in all different cartridges, have learned how to operate all of my firearms precisely, including what to do if something goes wrong. I have no such experience with Bear Spray. I've never even held a can of the stuff before, so I don't even know how to deploy the stuff, much less how the stream behaves in flight, what its effective range is, nor how it behaves in flight, especially in the presence of heavy wind.
It has nothing to do with bravado, it all comes down to experience, and I have none with Bear Spray, ergo I prefer to stick to what I know, what I'm confident with, and what I'm proficient with. Besides, in a pinch, I would prefer a potentially lethal weapon to a strictly nonlethal weapon, because on the off chance that I encounter one of the 8% of bears that don't stop after receiving a spray to the face, I know that they won't respond quite as well to a free blast to the face with a powerful gun.
686-380
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I had an awesome opportunity, to work at a ski resort. My "supervisor" and another of the crew were guides in Alaska, during the summer. Nick (the supervisor) carried a Ruger Redhawk, IIRC. I would imagine your guide may very well too. I didn't ask what he how he carried it...he didn't seem concerned and actually gave me footage of the bears. They are much more concerned about the salmon than the people.
csurp34
US Veteran
I have always wanted to ask a bear spray expert, how does one deploy the spray when the bear is upwind?
Abbotson
Member
Hence the 10mm Glock comment I was holding on to. In all fairness they're good for when you don't want to ding up a good gun. And it is 15 rounds of, for all intents and purposes, .41 Magnum so I wouldn't be so quick to turn my nose up at it.
BearBio
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The spray comes out at appx. 30 mph. So, the wind would, logically, have to be greater than 30 mph. Also, the spray is heavier than air, so it has more momentum/inertia.
Wind speeds like that, if coming from the side, could deflect a relatively slow moving, large caliber handgun bullet, and likely prevent accurate shot placement, especially when rushed and stressed. As I said, I have been charged and doubt if I could have accurately hit a running bear. Standard firearms training is to place a target inside a tire and roll it down hill. To pass, you must hit at least once with a 375 H & H Mag or 12 gauge with slugs and sights. Similarly, a target on a downhill pulley coming towards you at 35 mph with one hit in the kill zone in 5 seconds, with a 44 magnum. Our biologists at the Alaskan NWRs use 2 3/4 Brenneke slugs when they have to destroy a bear in "defense of life or property" (meaning after an attack), otherwise they carry spray.
Someone said:
"It has nothing to do with bravado, it all comes down to experience, and I have none with Bear Spray, ergo I prefer to stick to what I know, what I'm confident with, and what I'm proficient with. Besides, in a pinch, I would prefer a potentially lethal weapon to a strictly nonlethal weapon, because on the off chance that I encounter one of the 8% of bears that don't stop after receiving a spray to the face, I know that they won't respond quite as well to a free blast to the face with a powerful gun."
Answer: What if it is one of the 38% that a firearm doesn't stop? Even a "blast to the face" may not stop a bear Bear skulls are thick and slope so as to deflect a bullet if not straight into the nasal cavity and if deflected it may not kill instantly. Even if a "kill shot" the bear may still travel 50 yards at 35 mph. Want to get hit by a 800-1000 lb bear at that speed? How much experience do you have with hitting a CHARGING 800 lb bear?
With my Reeder Super Blackhawk in 454 Casull with 325gr hardcast, I can place two shots within a 2" group within 5 seconds-after that my group opens up! I still carry spray!
Again, do what you want! Just sharing my experience and knowledge! I would recommend hard cast bullets in the heaviest weight you can find: my woods guns are the aforementioned Reeder, an OM Blackhawk in 45 long colt and my Glock 20.
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No, not quite. The Norma load was close. All other commercial loads are between 357 and 41 unless you count boutique loads which are hotter.
IMO not enough for large bear and hoping that one of those 16 rounds hits something vital.
BearBio
Member
I bow to the experience of the Sirius dog sled patrol. These guys run into polar bear often, sometimes daily!
"The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (Danish: Slædepatruljen Sirius), known informally as Siriuspatruljen (the Sirius Patrol) and formerly known as North-East Greenland Sledge Patrol and Resolute Dog Sled Patrol, is an elite Danish naval unit. It conducts long-range reconnaissance patrolling, and enforces Danish sovereignty in the Arctic wilderness of northern and eastern Greenland, an area that includes the Northeast Greenland National Park, which is the largest national park in the world. Patrolling is usually done in pairs and using dog sleds with about a dozen dogs, sometimes for four months and often without additional human contact."
"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Among the equipment used by the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol is the M1917 Enfield bolt-action rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53 (17), and the Glock 20 pistol chambered in 10mm Auto.
The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol uses the standard .30-06 Springfield 168-grain (10.89 g) armor piercing, M2 military rifle round and also civilian hollow-points. The patrolmen feel that the M2 military round is best against aggressive polar bears at long range, but that the hollow-points are better against an enraged musk ox. Typically, the patrolmen arrange their stripper clips so every third round is a hollow-point.
The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol formerly used Pistol M/49 sidearms chambered in 9×19mm Parabellum, but they proved insufficient against the polar bears encountered.
"The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) perform reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."
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Take someone you don't care too much for. If he or she is faster than you, you'll need a .22 to knee-cap him/her.
BearBio
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Charging Bear Killed in Alaska
Brush instinctively back-pedaled to avoid the charge, drawing the Ruger from its holster. "I fired from the hip as he closed the distance," Brush recalls. "I know I missed the first shot, but I clearly hit him after that. I believe I fired four or five shots. "
How much will a 35 MPH cross wind move/drift a .45 ACP FMJ at 25 yards?
BearBio
Member
Doesn't need to be much to miss a vital area (i.e. the "walnut"). BTW: It will be hard to justify a 25 yard shot to the wardens.
The ballistic tables I see say it's about 1/2 inch. I'm not seeing that as a big difference.
As to the distance what do the wardens require it to be before you can shoot a charging bear? Is that codified, or a matter of individual warden interpretation?
BearBio
Member
Your aiming to go through the skull and hit a 2x2" target AFTER penetrating the skull. A simple brain shot won't do it=you gotta hit the "walnut". A deflection off of the turbinate bones in the nose or by hitting a sinus cavity could throw you off!
Warden interpretation. I know Federal LEOs who have told me they would seriously question a 50 yard shot. Twenty-five yards? My one charge ended at 6-8 feet (bluff charge). Remember, grizzlies are not usually out to kill you, just eliminate a threat! The bear in the linked article was starving!
"Brush instinctively back-pedaled to avoid the charge, drawing the Ruger from its holster. "I fired from the hip as he closed the distance," Brush recalls. "I know I missed the first shot, but I clearly hit him after that. I believe I fired four or five shots. "
Notice, he hit it "four or five times" with a 454 and it was still alive!! Also, he didn't know if he had hit it four OR five times!
The "walnut" is " the medulla oblongata, often just referred to as the medulla, that is the lower half of the brainstem continuous with the spinal cord. Its upper part is continuous with the pons. The medulla contains the cardiac, dorsal and ventral respiratory groups, and vasomotor centres, dealing with heart rate, breathing and blood pressure. "
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So shoot for the "walnut" or nothing at all? Sorry, not buying that.
I still am trying to understand that shooting a charging bear at 25 yards is somehow unacceptable. So at what point do you finally determine the bear is bluffing? One yard? Five? Seven?
As to Mr. Brush, a bear charged, was not bluffing, and did not stop short. Brush shot it, was able to get more than one shot off, and stopped it, that he didn't kill it is immaterial.
I'm betting that most people that are being charged by a bear (Black or Grizzly) will not think it is bluffing and won't wait to see if it is.
BearBio
Member
Most people are not familiar about bear behavior which is why most people carry guns. Of course, wearing bear spray on your hip doesn't get you many girls in bars!
FYI: Most fatalities are by fairly young, male, black bears. Grizzlies, as I said before, simply want to remove a threat. That's why playing "dead" with a grizzly works but not with black bears. Black bear attacks are more likely to be predatory attacks.
Grizzlies evolved as a plains animal where there weren't many trees. That's why natural selection favored aggressive mothers who defended their young. As the white man intruded onto the plains and chaparral, grizzlies retreated to the more inhospitable habitat. Black bears evolved in the forests and natural selection favored those who sent the cubs up trees. Factors such as r & K Selection (MacArthur and Wilson Biogeography) and Robert Trivers' Theory of Sexual Investment also play a role but that's too complicated to explain here and isn't really a big factor! BTW: Female black bears are not likely to defend cubs; I have, several times, been between a sow and her cubs.
That also explains WHY SoCal only had grizzlies (the primary habitat was chaparral or semi arid grasslands) until Cal DFG introduced black bears into the Transverse Ranges in 1934-35.
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