Kodiak Alaska, Self Defense

[ramblin84]

Bear encounter data like much scientific data require close examination to determine the efficacy of deterrents. I found this article to be very informative.

Regardless, when I'm in "the woods", I'm carrying.

Does Bear Spray Work? | Outside Online

 

[BearBio]

Not to disparage Tom's work-he is actually a scientist. Weingarten does not appear to be. His data are, by his admission, "cherry picked". For instance, there is a very BIG difference between the black powder firearms of 1883 and the modern firearms of 2009. Weingarten's "data" (Clue: data is a plural term, like geese; the singular is datum) are largely anecdotal. DPL shootings are NOT necessarily defensive. Big difference between shooting a bear with a high powered rifle at 50 yards and a bear at smelling distance. Many DLPs are shooting a standing bear or a feeding bear from "ambush", possibly even over bait. Many "charges" result from poor bullet placement. You may want to look at Tom's work with Dr. Stephen Herrero and their co-publications. Stephen's doctoral work looked at bear attacks in National Parks and since he moved to Alberta, includes data from Canadian Provincial Parks, as well.

Outside Online is hardly a definitive work=it is an on-line magazine about hiking, running, and bicycling! It is not peer-reviewed, nor is it likely even written by a biologist (Like they say about judges, if he was any good, he'd be a lawyer!).

Like I have said several times: Do what you want to do=It's YOUR funeral!

 

[jdlii]

Gunfighter's Kenai Chest rig, .44 magnum of your choice, appropriate ammunition loaded with hard cast bullets.

My choice is depicted in the attached photograph.

 

[jaguargolf]

Can you fly commercially with bear spray? Do you have to buy it in Alaska?

What size cans?

When I could get it mail order in NY I did buy 6 or so practice cans for the whole family to practice with for our local hiking trips along with a real can for each family member. I see a few black bear around, enough that I keep bear spray in the shed, and on my riding mower. My neighbor beat a large old male with a rake for killing one of her goats.

 

[Echo40]

Our biologists at the Alaskan NWRs use 2 3/4 Brenneke slugs when they have to destroy a bear in "defense of life or property" (meaning after an attack), otherwise they carry spray.

Perfect! I just so happen to own a Mossberg 590 Shockwave and some Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs!
I wonder if I can attach some Bear Spray to a bit of Pic Rail somehow, then I'll have the ultimate Bear Defense firearm!

Like I have said several times: Do what you want to do=It's YOUR funeral!

Understood. If I carry a Revolver, then I'll be sure to leave the last cylinder empty for cash to pay for my funeral, just like the cowboys used to do!

Wait, Bears already bury the dead, right? Then they come back later, dig it up, and eat it. On second thought, maybe I'll leave a nice big .429 caliber TicTac in the last cylinder. Just to show the bear that there's no hard feelings.
Heck, maybe I should pack a bottle of Pepto too, just incase I disagree with it. I don't know how well a Bear's stomach would reach to all this spicy Mediterranean flavor, especially if Bear Spray is as effective as you say it is.

 

[ppeeks]

We fish at remote fly-in camps in Northern Quebec and Alaska, always on a lake (we get dropped in by float plane). Sometimes the dock is 20-30 yards from the cabin. We frequently see bears and occasionally moose with calves if there's marshy areas nearby (and I find the moose much more terrifying than the bears). Our three rules are: Rule 1 -- don't ever leave the cabin/tent alone, not even to go to the boat. Rule 2: don't ever leave the cabin/tent unarmed, period. Rule 3: you can never have "too much gun," but you can always have "too little gun." Corollary to Rule 3: carry the most gun with the most stopping power you can practically carry. We carry bear spray as well, when we are not flying to our destination (putting bear spray in checked luggage is both dumb and illegal, and I'm reasonably sure you can't put it in your carry-on pack, either). Are we overprepared? Is there even such a thing?

Since the fish cleaning station is sometimes set up reasonably close to the cabin, there's nothing we can do to prevent occasional visits from inquisitive bears in those situations.

When possible, my son and I take turns practicing and carrying our two current bear defense weapons: a Ruger Redhawk Super Alaskan in .44 Rem Mag loaded with Buffalo Bore +P+ 340 Grain LFN-GC, and a Henry H024 .45-70 Govt lever gun loaded with HSM Bear Load +P 430 Grain RNFP-GC. (We still do this when we are in Alaska, but it is not possible for us to take the revolver into Canada anymore.) We wear the wheel gun in a Gunfighters Kenai chest rig, which is awesome. The stainless steel gun can get wet -- we know how to clean it later. The person who is staying relatively dry-er carries the lever gun slung over his shoulder, or in hand when we are walking/hiking (and if it gets wet, oh well, we know how to clean it later, too, and it is often raining). I've added Skinner Sights' "Express" rear sight with the largest available aperture to the Henry as a ghost ring in the back, and their Bear Buster front sight (which is just an enormous white ramp/post). As upgraded, it is extremely easy and quick to point the rifle and pick up the white ramp inside the ghost ring against any dark background. We're not talking about long range shooting -- this sort of accuracy is just fine. The only thing that sucks is PRACTISING with both of these guns -- the bear defense ammo is definitely not shooter-friendly. So we dial back the muzzle energy for practice; as I was told a while back, you don't notice the painful recoil when shooting at an actual bear. We've not had to shoot in self-defense yet and I hope neither of us ever needs to pull the trigger on a charging bear; we make all the usual bells and whistles when in bear woods and not wanting unexpected meetings. Next summer, though, we are doing another Northern Quebec trip that will involve us hiking some heavily wooded and rarely used trails between the lake on which our campsite is positioned to two other nearby lakes (we have all three lakes, with a boat on each one, to ourselves for a week).

 

[Onomea]

I'm thinking, as to what to take for bear defense, a Marine rifle squad would be about right.

 

[BearBio]

Can you fly commercially with bear spray? Do you have to buy it in Alaska?

What size cans?

When I could get it mail order in NY I did buy 6 or so practice cans for the whole family to practice with for our local hiking trips along with a real can for each family member. I see a few black bear around, enough that I keep bear spray in the shed, and on my riding mower. My neighbor beat a large old male with a rake for killing one of her goats.

My understanding is you cannot fly commercially with spray. Private planes are a different story. Remember, if you use spray to (1) clean/clear the nozzle. The oils can clog it up. and (2) be sure to carry enough to get back from your trip. Nothing worse than facing a PO'd bear with an empty can!

Practice cans are a good idea. We had several in our "Bear Trailer" that we used to take to outdoor fairs, etc. I also suggest taking the Montana Parks Bear ID class and test on-line (free and good for life!) (Bear Identification Program | Montana FWP). I required it for my students when certifying for bear spray.

REMEMBER (!!): Situational Awareness is still the best protection!

 

[BearBio]

On the subject of firearms: I worked part-time as a hunting guide in Central Cali on wild pigs while in grad school. We had several "failures to stop" with 44 Magnum revolvers. I switched to 41 Magnum hard-cast or "bowling pin" bullets (jacketed with just the tip exposed) because I got better penetration. Also hardcast 45 long colt loads put pigs down faster and punched through the "gristle plate" on big boars better.

Take home: If you choose to use a handgun, use the best bullets you can!

 

[Echo40]

A .44 Magnum failed, but .41 Magnum and .45 Long Colt succeeded?

Yeesh, how does that even happen? .41 Magnum has less mass/energy than .44 Magnum and .45LC has even less energy but greater mass.

Don't get me wrong, I know that .45LC is adequate for Hogs, in fact, according to Elmer Keith a 255gr bullet @ 1000fps was adequate for hunting any game in North America, and even a Standard Pressure .45LC can accomplish that if loaded to full SAAMI Specs, I'm just baffled that it would succeed where a .44 Magnum failed, unless it was an overpressure load that was equal or greater than .44 Magnum in terms of overall performance.

What sort of .45LC load was it? I ask because that cartridge can and often is loaded all over the map from the wimpy Target Loads which are like .38 Special, Cowboy Loads that are on par with .44 Special/.45 ACP range ammo, SD Loads which are on par with .45 ACP/+P, Outdoorsman Loads which are on par with 10mm/.45 Super, and the overpressure loads which are up there with .44 Magnum.

 

[vinn]

can you shoot slugs in a shotgun with a full choke barrel?

 

[uncleted327]

Hence the 10mm Glock comment I was holding on to. In all fairness they're good for when you don't want to ding up a good gun. And it is 15 rounds of, for all intents and purposes, .41 Magnum so I wouldn't be so quick to turn my nose up at it.

10mm is nothing close to a real 41 Magnum in power, never has been and never will be. At its absolute best its equal to a good 357 Magnum. Which would be preferable over a 10mm semi. Those 15 round mags mean nothing when you'll have a chance to fire maybe 2 or 3 shots. And when I'm carrying something to protect my life with, dinging up a good gun is about last on my list of worries...

 

[uncleted327]

No, not quite. The Norma load was close. All other commercial loads are between 357 and 41 unless you count boutique loads which are hotter.

IMO not enough for large bear and hoping that one of those 16 rounds hits something vital.

Again, Underwood makes the stoutest 10mm and 357 loads I've ever seen, and their 125gr 357 produces more ft-lbs than any of their 10mm loads. 10mm is at best an equal to a 357. They in no way fall in between the 357 and 41 Magnum. Isn't true now, nor has it ever been.

 

[BearBio]

A .44 Magnum failed, but .41 Magnum and .45 Long Colt succeeded?

Yeesh, how does that even happen? .41 Magnum has less mass/energy than .44 Magnum and .45LC has even less energy but greater mass.

Don't get me wrong, I know that .45LC is adequate for Hogs, in fact, according to Elmer Keith a 255gr bullet @ 1000fps was adequate for hunting any game in North America, and even a Standard Pressure .45LC can accomplish that if loaded to full SAAMI Specs, I'm just baffled that it would succeed where a .44 Magnum failed, unless it was an overpressure load that was equal or greater than .44 Magnum in terms of overall performance.

What sort of .45LC load was it? I ask because that cartridge can and often is loaded all over the map from the wimpy Target Loads which are like .38 Special, Cowboy Loads that are on par with .44 Special/.45 ACP range ammo, SD Loads which are on par with .45 ACP/+P, Outdoorsman Loads which are on par with 10mm/.45 Super, and the overpressure loads which are up there with .44 Magnum.

The 45 Colt load I use is a 300 or 325 gr hardcast lead, modified Keith SWC at about 1300 fps. My usual load is about 1100 fps and is more controllable. The 41 Mag worked better because, all things being equal (quality bullet, velocity, hardcast, etc) it penetrated better. Most hunters we had used factory 240gr HP for hunting hogs. Had one fall out of a ham at the dinner table one time! (Hunter had given it to me as a tip and I had it smoked!). These loads were in OM Blackhawks.

Regarding the 10mm: I will repeat what I said earlier. The Danish sled patrols see more large bears in a week than most of us will in a lifetime. BTW: Polar bears are the only terrestrial predators that hunt man, as a rule! I trust their judgement better than the people here, looking at paper stats!

 

[BearBio]

can you shoot slugs in a shotgun with a full choke barrel?

Can but not recommended! Could bulge your barrel (assuming you mean a hollow "punkin' ball" type slug). A good hardcast (yes, they are out there!) or solid slug would almost surely ruin your barrel.

 

[ppeeks]

Can but not recommended! Could bulge your barrel (assuming you mean a hollow "punkin' ball" type slug). A good hardcast (yes, they are out there!) or solid slug would almost surely ruin your barrel.

And could easily blow up the choked barrel, let alone bulge it. To much resistance due to hardcast not compressing is same thing as a barrel obstruction -- dangerous to the shooter and those nearby.

 

[peterGun]

can you shoot slugs in a shotgun with a full choke barrel?

Foster slugs yes


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[Echo40]

Pfft... You goofy kids arguing over .357 Magnum vs 10mm Auto, Fancy Revolvers vs Utilitarian Semiautomatic Pistols...

Witness the glory of .45 Super out of a Fancy Semiautomatic Pistol!

Power on par with .357 Magnum/10mm Auto, with a bigger, heavier bullet, out of a pistol which has been subjected to some of the most extensive torture testing in history; the Heckler & Koch USP45, with the added sophistication of a hand-fitted longslide, match grade barrel, factory tuned trigger, and target sights.

 

[CalmerThanYou]

^^Yeah that's great until the bear pulls out his full auto MP5 and shames you.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Pfft... You goofy kids arguing over .357 Magnum vs 10mm Auto, Fancy Revolvers vs Utilitarian Semiautomatic Pistols...

Witness the glory of .45 Super out of a Fancy Semiautomatic Pistol!

Power on par with .357 Magnum/10mm Auto, with a bigger, heavier bullet, out of a pistol which has been subjected to some of the most extensive torture testing in history; the Heckler & Koch USP45, with the added sophistication of a hand-fitted longslide, match grade barrel, factory tuned trigger, and target sights.

Nice, but it's still not enough.