Kodiak Alaska, Self Defense

[LoboGunLeather]

I now realize that during my late teen years I was woefully unprepared to deal with VC insurgents and NVA regulars in Vietnam. Now in my 70s I am woefully unprepared to deal with Kodiaks, browns, grizzlies, or polar bears.

First time I was not offered a choice so I did what I had to do. Now I have a choice and my firm intention is to avoid these situations completely.

I will leave the bear territories to the bears, but I will continue to enjoy reading these posts! All the stimulation my old bones can handle.

 

[Imissedagain]

^^Yeah that's great until the bear pulls out his full auto MP5 and shames you.

If MP5 stands for Mighty Paw/5 cutters... the bear carries 4 locked and loaded.

A 3.5" X frame 460 in a chest holder works for us as does a 629/4" carried the same way.
Both about the same length.
Once asked the Chief of Police in Walla Walla, back around '80, who stands guard while we fish?
"Don't you Florida boys carry guns was his reply."

Should be able to work up some loads, 300gr-340gr HC that will exceed the 44 Mag and may allow for follow up shots.... if time permits.... one hand practice as well.
Little gun for hiking/fishing... big one for hunting and target fun.

Met lotsa bears in Yosemite in the last half of the '60s and never had any problems. Carried a 22LR HS auto most often.

 

[Llance]

I read sometime back, likely when I was stationed in Alaska that the luckiest shot on a Kodiak bear was a fella who only carried a .22 rifle while working his land. Bear was charging him, he took off running for his life and came to the fence line. Choice, turn and shoot at the bear, try to get over the fence. As I remember, he knew the bear would be on him if he tried to go over the fence, and if he shot the bear the bear would still be on him. He turned and shot at the bear and the bear died as it stretched out with one of it's front paws just inches from the mans foot.

It seems the bullet entered the bears eye and found its way to the "walnut" JIT.

Would I attempt to hunt Kodiak with a .22? No way in H^^^

 

[Echo40]

Nice, but it's still not enough.

You know, this actually raises an interesting question that hopefully BioBear will answer if he's still around.

So, folks argue endlessly in regards to what is "enough" for Bears, often to the point that even the effectiveness of powerful cartridges are called into question, yet Bear Spray is 92% effective.

My question is, how does Bear Spray manage to be so effective without causing permanent injury to the bear? Honestly, how is it that Bears are supposedly able to shrug off having large caliber hot pieces of lead piercing their bodies, smashing through bones, and penetrating their organs along the way, yet getting some hot gel sprayed into their eyes/nose/throat is 92% effective?
Is Bear Spray far less humane than I've been lead to believe, like getting sprayed with corrosive acid or causing such agonizing pain and unspeakable terror to the animal that it loses all ability to fight?
Does it temporarily blind them? And if so, how do they get it out of their eyes? What's to stop them from blindly charging over the edge of a cliff and onto some jagged rocks? Has this stuff ever been thoroughly tested on bears in captivity to confirm that it doesn't cripple them for life? Has anyone ever observed bears in the wild after they've been sprayed to see if they're even capable of getting it out of their eyes? Whether it causes prolonged irritation which may cause the bear to scratch at their eyes until they've become infected?

It just baffles me that apparently bears are so fierce that absolutely nothing short of an instant-kill-shot will stop a bear, yet a can of spray will, despite supposedly being totally humane. You'd think for it to be that effective then it would have to be excruciatingly agonizing, which to me seems far less humane than simply shooting it dead.

 

[RCL-09]

Bear Spray Failure in Alaska, 46-Year-Old Killed Clearing Trail

Bear spray fail? – Craig Medred

Two More Bear Spray Failures in Montana - The Truth About Guns

And there are many, many more stories like those.

 

[ppeeks]

You know, this actually raises an interesting question that hopefully BioBear will answer if he's still around.

So, folks argue endlessly in regards to what is "enough" for Bears, often to the point that even the effectiveness of powerful cartridges are called into question, yet Bear Spray is 92% effective.

My question is, how does Bear Spray manage to be so effective without causing permanent injury to the bear? Honestly, how is it that Bears are supposedly able to shrug off having large caliber hot pieces of lead piercing their bodies, smashing through bones, and penetrating their organs along the way, yet getting some hot gel sprayed into their eyes/nose/throat is 92% effective?
Is Bear Spray far less humane than I've been lead to believe, like getting sprayed with corrosive acid or causing such agonizing pain and unspeakable terror to the animal that it loses all ability to fight?
Does it temporarily blind them? And if so, how do they get it out of their eyes? What's to stop them from blindly charging over the edge of a cliff and onto some jagged rocks? Has this stuff ever been thoroughly tested on bears in captivity to confirm that it doesn't cripple them for life? Has anyone ever observed bears in the wild after they've been sprayed to see if they're even capable of getting it out of their eyes? Whether it causes prolonged irritation which may cause the bear to scratch at their eyes until they've become infected?

It just baffles me that apparently bears are so fierce that absolutely nothing short of an instant-kill-shot will stop a bear, yet a can of spray will, despite supposedly being totally humane. You'd think for it to be that effective then it would have to be excruciatingly agonizing, which to me seems far less humane than simply shooting it dead.

Humans recover from getting pepper-sprayed, too. It is designed to temporarily, not permanently, incapacitate. The mammalian (human and bear) respiratory organs and eyes are sufficiently well evolved to provide for self-protection from irritants -- it just takes time for all of the mucous, saliva, and lacrimal fluid (tears) to do their work at flushing out the irritant.

 

[waffles]

A few bears that did not kill me during this week.

The bear spray chat is fun. The big negative as mentioned is wind, I forget if I discussed this here or in another thread, but if you're serious about it go ahead and get an inert can and try it in various wind conditions. It does better than you'd think, but in say wyoming head on awful winds that manage to keep that state's population so low, it's not going to be a great time for you even if the bear abandons the encounter.

The upsides are of course ease of use for new users (think tourists in yellowstone), the price, and the relative lack of consequences for use. Yeah if you light off your bear spray accidentally in the car its awful, if you spray your friend you'll be buying beers for awhile, but you can be much, more more liberal with the use than with a firearm. If you've got a bear advancing slowly or hanging around camp that is not otherwise aggressive, I personally would be hesitant to shoot it. With spray, my threshold is way, way lower. Ditto if the bear is around others. One of the camping areas next to me in the Shoshone forest this week had a bear encounter caused by poor scent management, and the bear wound up entering an occupied campsite and knocking things over with people around. They got in their vehicles and were fine, but in that situation I'd be very nervous about lighting off a gun for fear of hitting a bystander, whereas the spray would suck to get hit with, but everybody would live without serious or permanent injury.

Carry either, or if you're smart and have the room, both. There's a time and place for either, though the spray is generally what I have in hand going through "beary" areas.

 

[rwt1405]

Do with this as you will.

To the best of my knowledge it is the best information available.

Does Bear Spray Work? | Outside Online

 

[sourdough44]

I like the Kenai chest rig, for quick access. Whatever you take, I'd bring the bear spray too. I think the threshold for deploying spray is much lower than shooting.

The more remote you get, most everyone has a gun, may as well join them.

 

[BearBio]

Do with this as you will.

To the best of my knowledge it is the best information available.

Does Bear Spray Work? | Outside Online

See my discussion above. No comparison between DLP shootings (i.e. bears in the garbage shot from ambush) and defensive shootings (8-10 feet on a rushing bears).

"Heck, maybe I should pack a bottle of Pepto too, just incase I disagree with it. I don't know how well a Bear's stomach would reach to all this spicy Mediterranean flavor, especially if Bear Spray is as effective as you say it is."

Part of my thesis was a diet analysis of bear scat:
I found a KFC box (whole) in bear scat, whole plastic condiment packets, whole pine cones and acorns, poison oak berries, and several small animal bones (frogs, rabbits, birds), as well as burger wrappers (whole). To a bear, "Meat's Meat!". BTW: Using pepper spray on trash cans seemed to attract bears (Prevalence of Mexican food in SoCal?)

 

[ggibson511960]

I took a trout/salmon fly fishing trip to the Aleutians with an outfitter who forbade his guides and clients from carrying firearms or bear spray. He was an old polar bear and brown bear hunter who knew by bitter experience that bear spray is hyper-dangerous in float planes and a .375 is the minimum firearm. He had guided 50+ years of client trips without incident. We had many "close" encounters with monstrous Kodiak brown bears. The guides were ever alert to give them plenty of space if they wanted to wander near. We were instructed every day to stop fighting a fish that attracted a hungry bear. They are near blind, but can make out an arched fly rod and a jumping fish and will meander toward them. I had an old sow wander across the Brooks River to investigate my spirited fight with a salmon. We all knew what to do, stop fighting, drop the rod tip and walk back. No problem. The bears are so full of fish in the summer salmon runs they don't want to hassle with upright humanoids.

A contrarian view on a firearms board, but it has worked. I would hesitate to strap anything heavy to my person while trying to wade fish on slick rocks in frigid, brisk flowing rivers. A much higher percentage use safety measure would be a rescue belt and a CO2 horse collar PFD.

 

[ajgunner]

Part of my thesis was a diet analysis of bear scat:
I found a KFC box (whole) in bear scat, whole plastic condiment packets, whole pine cones and acorns, poison oak berries, and several small animal bones (frogs, rabbits, birds), as well as burger wrappers (whole). To a bear, "Meat's Meat!". BTW: Using pepper spray on trash cans seemed to attract bears (Prevalence of Mexican food in SoCal?)

Interesting stuff---anywhere that your work can be read in full?

 

[Neal]

Ran across this grizzly bear attack story from 2006. I was happy to see it end well for the hunters.

Alaskan Grizzly Bear Attack Demonstrates Effectiveness of .44 Magnum - The Truth About Guns

 

[BearBio]

You know, this actually raises an interesting question that hopefully BioBear will answer if he's still around.

So, folks argue endlessly in regards to what is "enough" for Bears, often to the point that even the effectiveness of powerful cartridges are called into question, yet Bear Spray is 92% effective.

My question is, how does Bear Spray manage to be so effective without causing permanent injury to the bear? Honestly, how is it that Bears are supposedly able to shrug off having large caliber hot pieces of lead piercing their bodies, smashing through bones, and penetrating their organs along the way, yet getting some hot gel sprayed into their eyes/nose/throat is 92% effective?
Is Bear Spray far less humane than I've been lead to believe, like getting sprayed with corrosive acid or causing such agonizing pain and unspeakable terror to the animal that it loses all ability to fight?
Does it temporarily blind them? And if so, how do they get it out of their eyes? What's to stop them from blindly charging over the edge of a cliff and onto some jagged rocks? Has this stuff ever been thoroughly tested on bears in captivity to confirm that it doesn't cripple them for life? Has anyone ever observed bears in the wild after they've been sprayed to see if they're even capable of getting it out of their eyes? Whether it causes prolonged irritation which may cause the bear to scratch at their eyes until they've become infected?

It just baffles me that apparently bears are so fierce that absolutely nothing short of an instant-kill-shot will stop a bear, yet a can of spray will, despite supposedly being totally humane. You'd think for it to be that effective then it would have to be excruciatingly agonizing, which to me seems far less humane than simply shooting it dead.

Pretty simple, actually. Ever touch your eyes after handling jalapenos or habaneros? Now multiply that by 1000 times. Also, in your nose and throat as well. Anyone who's ever been in the Army (and presumably the Marines, although I was Army) will remember tear/CS gas training. Basically, the bear cannot see, smell, taste, or breathe. It is humane because (1) it is not fatal and (2) it is temporary. The bear doesn't "wander" anywhere. It is possible another bear could come along and damage or kill the sprayed bear but pretty unlikely.

The second bear we "tranked" was an old male and he wasn't caught in a trap but was free roaming (We had trapped a female and it was July=bear breeding season in SoCal). The warden gave him a double dose, so he wouldn't run off. The tranquilizer we used (Telazol) was unlikely to induce an overdose. The bear was on somebody's carport and took about 6-8 hors to wake up. we had to watch him to prevent (1) eye damage from crows and ravens and (2) damage from another bear.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

Another fan of the chest holster here. Diamond D makes the nicest one I've carried, but I'm also a fan of my own "Simply Rugged" pancake holster with the Chesty Puller set up. It's really not as nice as the Diamond D set up, but the versatility is really nice in being able to wear it on the chest while hunting, etc. and on the hip under a flanel when getting supplies in town or just beating around the cabin not covered with packs, waders, rifles, fishing poles, etc. I spent five years or so carrying a .45 Colt Mountain Gun concealed, so belt carry is pretty comfortable to me and preferred when it's practical to.

I got nothing to say on caliber, bullet selection, etc. So far soft, soothing words and a slow retreat has always been effective, and I have not had to resort to "Plan B".

On the spray...I'm a public sector kinda guy. I am exposed to OC pretty regularly. A fun fact that few people realize is that LEO and defensive sprays are actually far more powerful than bear spray. Bear Spray is heavily limited by the Feds due to bears having much more acute olfactory senses. As a general rule of thumb, any deployment of pepper spray is considered to be the serving of a...**** sandwich. The intent of the sprayer is to simply give the target a bigger bite of the sandwich than they take themselves. The good news is that it sucks, but you can work through it. Part of LEO certifications is taking a direct hit of the strong stuff and run obstacle courses, apprehend a (mock) suspect, etc. If you catch some spray back, it's not the end of the world, it just sucks a little. Decontamination is usually the worst part. If a person is truly nervous about having spray around, a small bottle of baby shampoo for the eyes helps quite a bit.

It can be found nearly any where up here. 3 Bears, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cabela's, and a thousand mom and pop shops- not worth bringing your own.

I once picked up a leaking, abandoned can someone dumped on a hiking trail. A half hour or so later, I felt the urge to urinate. Shortly afterwards, I was hopping around a desolate valley in the middle of nowhere like the Easter Bunny praying for a breeze to cool my rapidly incinerating genitals. It's safe to say, I won't make that mistake again.

I hope my perspective may be of use to someone. I usually steer around threads that mention "bear" for a number of reasons I won't delve into.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I took a trout/salmon fly fishing trip to the Aleutians with an outfitter who forbade his guides and clients from carrying firearms or bear spray. He was an old polar bear and brown bear hunter who knew by bitter experience that bear spray is hyper-dangerous in float planes and a .375 is the minimum firearm. He had guided 50+ years of client trips without incident. We had many "close" encounters with monstrous Kodiak brown bears. The guides were ever alert to give them plenty of space if they wanted to wander near. We were instructed every day to stop fighting a fish that attracted a hungry bear. They are near blind, but can make out an arched fly rod and a jumping fish and will meander toward them. I had an old sow wander across the Brooks River to investigate my spirited fight with a salmon. We all knew what to do, stop fighting, drop the rod tip and walk back. No problem. The bears are so full of fish in the summer salmon runs they don't want to hassle with upright humanoids.

A contrarian view on a firearms board, but it has worked. I would hesitate to strap anything heavy to my person while trying to wade fish on slick rocks in frigid, brisk flowing rivers. A much higher percentage use safety measure would be a rescue belt and a CO2 horse collar PFD.

Aside from BearBio's posts, this one seems to make the most sense. Of course it IS a thread killer but then again most common sense posts are.
If I am paying for a high dollar fishing trip, I would expect the guide to keep my cha cha's out of the fire-the money I would spend on an XP1000 BEAR GUN would be better spent on the end of trip tip for the guide.
Full disclosure- I DO own a 629-4 Mountain Gun but alas have only shot it in the flatlands of South Louisiana. Down here my preferred weaponry for outside critters is plastic striker fired 9mm that I shoot until the thing of which I am shooting at ceases all movement.

In any event, this is one of the better bear gun threads I have read in a long time!

 

[Echo40]

My only problem with that is the whole; "a .375 is the minimum firearm" thing. First of all, which .375 precisely? There are a lot of .375cal rifle cartridges, so that's terribly nondescript. Secondly, if such were the case, then how did anyone ever hunt or stop a bear before that, and what's more, how does he account for the the reports of bears being stopped by handgun cartridges with less than ¼ the energy of any of the .375 rifle cartridges?

Everything else he says sounds like sage advice which is completely tangible, but his comment about; "a .375 is the minimum firearm" just doesn't hold water.
I meam, what is even the basis of such a claim? There's no way that he actually saw lesser cartridges fail outright against bears on any vital shot. I presume that he just wanted to stress the necessity of his presence there as well as mitigate the risk of having the fishermen panic and start firing wildly in the general direction of the bear regardless of who/what was between them.

Alaskan Bears have been successfully hunted for centuries using firearms with far less energy than any .375 rifle cartridge, and to this very day have been successfully stopped with handgun cartridges which fall far short of that energy threshold. Bears are flesh and blood creatures, not walking tanks that require Elephant Guns to successfully stop.

 

[BearBio]

Bear Spray Failure in Alaska, 46-Year-Old Killed Clearing Trail

Bear spray fail? – Craig Medred

Two More Bear Spray Failures in Montana - The Truth About Guns

And there are many, many more stories like those.

You are guilty of an amateur statistician's error: Cherry-picking data! Of course, there are times when bear spray fails to work, just as there are incidences of firearms failure. You need to look at stats collected by statisticians, not a magazine writer with an agenda or trying to sell newspapers. Bear spray, in all studies that are stringently performed and peer reviewed, still comes out ahead! I am sure, if I cherry picked, that I could prove "statistically" that the 22 LR is the best bear gun ;-)

Years ago, USFS did a study of firearms as bear defense: the only recommended firearm was a 468 Win Mag and no handguns were recommended. Granted new cartridges (e.g. 416 Taylor) and better bullets have increased the odds. USFWS still recommends the .375 or a shotgun (12 gauge with slugs) and there are no approved handguns. Norway does NOT allow handguns as bear protection.

It's your life=do what YOU want!

 

[Kanewpadle]

I'm now a believer. I got two first hand reports where bear spray stopped an attack.

I called my father who has lived in Alaska for the last 45 or so years. He had his doubts about the spray as well. I asked him what he thought about bear spray. Turns out he successfully changed a bears mind while fishing two years ago. And his fishing buddy did the same with a black bear. Said they got a good snoot full and ran off. They no longer carry bear guns when out and about. But they both carry a 357 for two legged vermin.

I'm not afraid of bear but I do have a healthy respect for them. On my first bear hunt at the age of 15, I saw a brown bear take a 338 magnum round through the heart at 175 yards. He ran close to 75 yards towards us before he dropped dead. We almost pooped our pants. We found the damage when we skinned him. The same bear now hangs on the wall of my dads reloading room.

 

[diyj98]

A real man wouldn't need a handgun.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAD7nFPPr60[/ame]