KOREA

[OLDNAVYMCPO]

North Korea or more specifically it's wacko leader is again rattling swords. Unless you have been to South Korea, especially Seoul, you probably can't envision how precarious the South's situation really is. On the highway that leads to the DMZ from Seoul (38mi if IRC) are these what appear to be overpasses. They are not. They are intended to be dropped by explosives onto the highway to slow the passage of tanks by the invading NK. In reality they are speed-bumps.

Seoul itself is a sprawling city with a huge population. In the event of an invasion, this population would turn into a mass of uncontrolled humanity in an exodus to the South. Just as in the Korean War, this mass would totally clog the highways preventing any movement of defensive forces. In shear size, the NK army is huge. For generations, the North has starved its people to invest heavily in it's military.

In the South, everyone must serve in the military, the smart, fit, and educated on active duty. The lame and deficient in the reserves, seriously.

The situation could be catastrophic for that part of the world. That is why we have war games with the South every year and are so determined to defend them.

 

[STCM(SW)]

Could not have said it better!

 

[bk42261]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Not necessarily an "isolationist" but at what point do we say "Tough Darts, we're not letting anymore of our children die on your soil"?

 

[Steve912]

Don't sell the ROK Army short. They're some tough jokers.

 

[StakeOut]

I lived in Seoul for 20 years before returning stateside 3 years ago.

The S. Korean people have been living with the north's antics since the politicians thought it was a good idea to divide Korea into 2 pieces after WWII.

It seems westerners get more rattled by the north's behavior than the South Koreans do.

Life goes on like it has every day since there became 2 Koreas.

The only thing I saw that puzzled me was South Korea's forces were too heavily concentrated north of the Han River.IMO if war ever broke out with an all out offensive by NK the area north of the river would be quickly lost anyway.

 

[Lee Barner]

I spent the last eight months of my last tour in RVN with the 9th ROK(White Horse Div). I can personally attest to their fighting abilities. after the cease fire in the Korean war about 5,000 Turks stayed and trained the new South Korean Army. on my last tour in Turkey I met a few veterans of the Korean War. they had life-time bus and rail passes so they could travel free of charge anywhere in the country they wanted to go. lee

 

[vytoland]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Not necessarily an "isolationist" but at what point do we say "Tough Darts, we're not letting anymore of our children die on your soil"?

AMEN!!! when will we ever learn.....

 

[Marshwheeling]

North Korea or more specifically it's wacko leader is again rattling swords.

Could be a clash of the titans.

 

[OLDNAVYMCPO]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Not necessarily an "isolationist" but at what point do we say "Tough Darts, we're not letting anymore of our children die on your soil"?

The world is a tough neighborhood. We need allies to survive. We have enemies that would gladly take us down if they could. Can you imagine if we had to face off with China, Russia, Iran. and others in a combined axis like we faced during WWII, without our allies. I don't know if this still holds true but twenty years ago at West Point they played computer games using real life scenarios, us against China alone. We never won.

 

[Cyrano]

About two weeks ago we moved a THAADS battery into South Korea (Theatre High Altitude Air Defense System, an anti ICBM missile defense). It didn't make the news, they were more concerned with the latest antics from Washington. However China and Russia, who rarely see eye to eye, went ballistic about the latest US 'aggression'. We have a battery on Guam which will furnish some protection against ICBM launches from North Korea towards the US. I guess the one in Korea is to protect both South Korea and Japan. Kim Jong Un just had his exiled brother asassinated (with VX nerve gas), so I don't think anyone is really safe from that loose cannon.

 

[muddocktor]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Not necessarily an "isolationist" but at what point do we say "Tough Darts, we're not letting anymore of our children die on your soil"?

Let's see if I can answer this.

1. South Korea has been a pretty staunch ally of ours since WWII. And a big trading partner and we have ties with them in Aerospace and other industries.

2. I feel that they keep a check on the goofy idiot north of them.

3, I would say that Japan would be a better partner for them except for a couple of reasons. The first is that the Koreans loathe the Japanese due to the way the Japanese have treated them in the past. And also, we pretty much emasculated the Japanese military after WWII and their present self defense force isn't big enough to help another country out.

I can think of quite a few other countries I would not help out before I would let the Koreans go it alone.

 

[hostler]

There was a day when the U.S. could stand on it's own against any and all enemies, that day has passed. We depend on imports and trade to an extent now that we could not survive without trade agreements and friends around the world. We need a reliable foothold in the middle east. The ONLY reliable friend we have is Israel.
Germany and S. Korea can suck it as far as I'm concerned. We get nothing of importance from them, all they do is criticize us. The only possible advantage to keeping Korea under our wing is as a staging area if we ever find ourselves fighting China (highly unlikely), but that's why we have Japan and India. North Korea is not a threat to anyone except South Korea. That whack job in N Korea has some very limited nuke capability which is just enough to piss us and other countries off but not enough to do substantial harm, and even he knows that.
Not to sound like an isolationist but to be bluntly honest, we should just use the Atlantic and Pacific ocean as they were intended, a separation of land and economy, and just maintain trade relations within the Americas. Between north and and South America we have every resource we would ever need. I know that kind of screws Israel and other countries we ally with in Europe but just think what a nice quiet community we would have if we only dealt financially with our neighbors to the north and south. Think about how strong an all American bond would make us while the European and Middle Eastern countries continually fight it out.

 

[codenamedave]

Don't sell the ROK Army short. They're some tough jokers.

A few years ago, I read about the "Axe murder incident", something I hadn't heard of before. When the retaliatory action began, a S. Korean contingent was assigned to help cover the bridge.

"In addition, a 64-man South Korean Special Forces company accompanied them, armed with clubs and trained in Tae Kwon Do, supposedly without firearms. However, once they parked their trucks near the Bridge of No Return, they started throwing out the sandbags that lined the truck bottoms, and handing out M16 rifles and M79 grenade launchers that had been concealed below. Several of the special forces men also had claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands, and were shouting at the North Koreans to cross the bridge."

Now I'd call those guys real BMSes. (That's a Bad Mother Shut yer mouth.)

Axe murder incident - Wikipedia


Coincidently, I recently found this pic floating around the webs, and I thought the contrasts between the forces was amusing.

N. Koreans: "I swear to God if it wouldn't get my entire family tortured to death, I'd shoot my Lieutenant for a cheeseburger."

S. Koreans: "We're tough and fierce! Don't try anything, because we're tough and fierce!!"

Americans: "Yeah, whatever. Bring it."

 

[Cardboard_killer]

About two weeks ago we moved a THAADS battery into South Korea (Theatre High Altitude Air Defense System, an anti ICBM missile defense). It didn't make the news, they were more concerned with the latest antics from Washington.

It was all over the news. It still is.

 

[vonn]

Hope for everyone's sake that this situation doesn't get worse. Like many that I talk with I seem to be becoming more in favor of a more isolationist policy for the country but that is pretty hard to accomplish in today's intertwined world. Our production capabilities are not what they were in WW2 . Not sure we could really fight any kind of major engagement.

 

[Steve912]

Several of the special forces men also had claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands,."

LOL...now I dunno bout THAT one...

 

[Targets Guy]

Serious business over there. When I ran the targets shop at Phan Rang AB we had ROK troops there we supported with maps, charts, etc. Serious people, some of whom collected ears.

While at Guam I traveled TDY to Korea and toured the axe murder site and went to Panmunjon and entered the bldg where the Korean war talks were held. The North Korean troops were serious indeed.

Hope we come up with a good plan.

 

[pharmer]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Kim Jong Un has nukes and is feverishly developing delivery vehicles to carry them. If you think we will allow them to hit Seoul or Tokyo (or maybe Seattle over the Pole)-AIN'T HAPPENING. That isn't the same as some rag-tag Hezbollah lobbing Katushyas over the border with Israel. Joe

 

[CBus660R]

All I know is I spent a week in Seoul back in '05 hanging out with a friend stationed there (he was an E7 then, now a Warrant Officer) who took a week of leave for me to see the sights and have a bit of fun as single guys in their late 20's are know to do. I loved the city and the people were awesome. Just from my own personal experience and not including any of the politics, I'd really hate to see anything bad happen to Seoul in particular and South Korea in general.

 

[cmort666]

Seoul itself is a sprawling city with a huge population. In the event of an invasion, this population would turn into a mass of uncontrolled humanity in an exodus to the South.

It's just as likely they'd turn into corpses, since it's highly likely that the North Koreans would flatten Seoul with conventional artillery and leave the rubble ankle deep in persistent nerve agent.

I think they know they can't win, especially with our current leadership mindset.

If the Kim dynasty decides to push the button, it'll because they realize they're in the express checkout lane and decide that if they can't keep their toys, they'll break the neighbor kids' toys too. The Japanese should realize that includes them.

The optimal solution would be for the Chinese to foment a coup from inside the NKPA (NK Army), overthrowing the Kims. They could then put one of their clients in charge of an "independent" North Korea, reformulated along current Chinese lines. The benefits:

1. It would eliminate a dangerous psychotic gang with nuclear weapons.
2. It would prevent the Chinese nightmare of a mad rush of North Koreans into China.
3. It would avoid a shooting war which would drag the United States, Japan, and probably China, into the fighting.
4. It would avoid an economic catastrophe resulting from the destruction of Seoul and much of northern South Korea.
5. It would avoid millions of military and civilian deaths... albeit not the thousands of executions of regime loyalists in North Korea.

Most of this is on the Chinese. They need to pull their heads out and realize that "negotiating" with Kim Jong Un is like negotiating with a tweaker holed up in an explosives factory (next to an elementary school) with his scared partner and a bunch of hostages. Just make a deal with the partner to shoot him in the back of the head when he's not looking and be done with it.

 

[walkinghorse]

A few years ago, I read about the "Axe murder incident", something I hadn't heard of before. When the retaliatory action began, a S. Korean contingent was assigned to help cover the bridge.

"In addition, a 64-man South Korean Special Forces company accompanied them, armed with clubs and trained in Tae Kwon Do, supposedly without firearms. However, once they parked their trucks near the Bridge of No Return, they started throwing out the sandbags that lined the truck bottoms, and handing out M16 rifles and M79 grenade launchers that had been concealed below. Several of the special forces men also had claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands, and were shouting at the North Koreans to cross the bridge."

Now I'd call those guys real BMSes. (That's a Bad Mother Shut yer mouth.)

Axe murder incident - Wikipedia


Coincidently, I recently found this pic floating around the webs, and I thought the contrasts between the forces was amusing.

N. Koreans: "I swear to God if it wouldn't get my entire family tortured to death, I'd shoot my Lieutenant for a cheeseburger."

S. Koreans: "We're tough and fierce! Don't try anything, because we're tough and fierce!!"

Americans: "Yeah, whatever. Bring it."

Wonder who the guy in middle of the S.Korea people is? The guy with the long black coat and the long black hair? Some kind of guru, Chuck Norris, or ?????, lending moral support? S. Korean political types are usually dressed in business suits?
Appears that he would be a " Yo Dude" type if western?

 

[M2A2]

AMEN!!! when will we ever learn.....

Well... we have an agreement to protect Japan and South Korea. Its our word. This is a mess. This wacko is out of control. If we see them arming nuclear weapons we will attack with nukes. That's a fact. What will happen? Will North Korea handlers become involved? You bet!! DONT Worry!! The Clintons sold the North Koreans nuclear power plants. Oh don't worry they also sold the Chinese our rocket technology. So everything is fine.

 

[muddocktor]

I'll give one more good reason to keep our word with Korea too for you isolationists to think about.

If we renege on our commitments on keeping South Korea free and safe from the NK's and Chinese, what do you think Japan will do? If I were the Japanese and we did that to Korea, I would think that the USA would also cut and run at the slightest hint of trouble with Japan and the other Asian countries. And I have no proof, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Japanese already have the designs and components already to assemble thermonuclear weapons for it TSHTF. They have an active and successful rocket industry, so mounting them on viable launch platforms is just a matter of mechanics and engineering. And while the JSDF isn't large, they are well equipped and well trained and we already know from WWII how fanatical the Japanese can get.

A nuclear armed Japan gives me the willies!

 

[cmort666]

A nuclear armed Japan gives me the willies!

You think it gives YOU the "willies"? What about the Chinese?

The key to this whole thing is China.

Trump needs to convene a meeting with the Chinese, accompanied by the South Koreans and Japanese and tell them, "Either you step in and take control or BOTH the ROKs AND the Japanese are going nuclear and we're HELPING them."

The Chinese government is evil, not stupid. I'm betting upon sober reflection, Xi Jen Ping will decide that there's a lot less expense and danger in asserting control over North Korea than there is in nuking South Korea, Japan AND the United States to protect a regime that views them with contempt, and lately has made no secret of it.

You've always got to have a fall guy...

 

[pharmer]

A nuclear armed Japan gives me the willies!

To me, in an "armed encounter," the more folks with interests in common with me, the better. Joe

 

[Targets Guy]

Great movie.

 

[16thVACav]

I've been studying the situation on the Korean peninsula, and have concluded that North Korea selects its leader on the basis of who has the worst haircut.

 

[cmort666]

I've been studying the situation on the Korean peninsula, and have concluded that North Korea selects its leader on the basis of who has the worst haircut.

And the highest A1C...

 

[cmort666]

Don't forget how the DPRK was established in the first place:

Stalin took an ethnic Korean Red Army officer and made him premier.

I'm sure there's some P.L.A. artillery officer named Yoon or Park who'd similarly like to become premier of North Korea...

 

[the ringo kid]

Serious question:
Other than "Global prestige" what interest do we have in protecting
South Korea, Japan ,Germany, etc.? Or Israel?

Not necessarily an "isolationist" but at what point do we say "Tough Darts, we're not letting anymore of our children die on your soil"?

According to Sarge Bill--who spent around 10 years of his Army career in South Korea and Germany--"Better defend THERE instead of here. ROK Marines are some of the worlds best marines next to our own. Sarge served side-by-side with them and served enough time on the border with them-to earn an ArCom and other awards.

South Korea and Japan both-are a buffer of sorts with china. Germany is a buffer from the Russians. Israel--SHOULD be a GIVEN? is a buffer from islimeists. It AINT "global prestiege."