LAPD folks, S&W 45 Q's

[stevee]

The change from the G22 to the G17 had nothing to do with ammunition prices. The later production third generation G22 has too many issues and none of the forth generation pistols are authorized. Once the Department changed to the G17, problems went away.

The 4506 continues to be very popular however due to deployment issues the Firearms Section has not been able to conduct that many transition courses.

 

[SW CQB 45]

Very few Departments in Texas issue weapons, Not even the City of Houston.

shhhhhhhhhhhhh! Victoria still issues Glocks. We have about 120 G21SF.

 

[ppd1107]

Where are officer's getting SW 45's when they want to transition? Are they buying used or is SW making limited runs for sale to LAPD personel?

 

[18DAI]

ppd1107 Being the current company calling itself S&W is only interested in pushing their high profit margin plastic guns, they are not bothering with this.

No 4506's have been made since 2008, IIRC.

The melonite, integral rail 4566TSW is the only 3rd gen 45 still in production as far as I've been able to determine. S&W won't even sell that to us. I was told to "...just buy an M&P.." Whatever.

If the WVSP had not told S&W to take their M&P and go pound sand, we wouldn't even have the melonite 4566. Corporate greed overcomes corporate arrogance.

My friends on the West Coast are buying used 4506's, 4566's and 4513's. The LAPD armory inspects them before they are allowed to qualify with them and carry them on duty. I'm told by those who know that a clean 4506-1 brings over a grand out there now.

I'm thankful for low 3rd gen prices locally. Regards 18DAI

 

[triaxle]

I was at the Harrisburg PA gun show today and their was alot of nice 4566 and mags for 15.00 each at the show 4566 are 350

 

[LSP 972]

I still carry the good ole 4506 .... you are issued 1 pistol by the city and right at this moment it is a glock 17.

I have two questions for you (and there is no "agenda" here, other than simple curiosity. I have some friends who are LAPD retired, and I have always been interested in your agency's firearms program).

1. What is the root of the resurgence of interest in the .45 ACP cartridge out there?

2. Why is HK not an "authorized brand"?

.

 

[Tim Nagel]

The change from the G22 to the G17 had nothing to do with ammunition prices. The later production third generation G22 has too many issues and none of the forth generation pistols are authorized. Once the Department changed to the G17, problems went away.

The 4506 continues to be very popular however due to deployment issues the Firearms Section has not been able to conduct that many transition courses.

Curious to what issues the Glock 22 is having? I have a Marine buddy who is LAPD, he carrys Glock 22 3rd generation with M3 light, said well over 5000 rounds no problems, he said same thing as Ca1942, was money issue, 9mm is cheaper than 40 and much easier to purchase in large amounts. He and his partner both carry the Glock 22, so he was hoping you would post the issues. Thanks

 

[badkarma6]

Curious to what issues the Glock 22 is having? I have a Marine buddy who is LAPD, he carrys Glock 22 3rd generation with M3 light, said well over 5000 rounds no problems, he said same thing as Ca1942, was money issue, 9mm is cheaper than 40 and much easier to purchase in large amounts. He and his partner both carry the Glock 22, so he was hoping you would post the issues. Thanks

It's actually a litany of problems, to long for a single post. Short story, unsupported chambers, leading to ruptured cases, blown extractors, reliability problems with lights attached, etc. Google it, you'll find all you need. Basically, they stuffed a high pressure cartridge in a platform designed solely for the 9mm.

 

[photoman]

Interesting LAPD thread. I had no idea anyone out there was still carrying the 3rd gen guns.

 

[Mack]

Glock jumped the shark with both the late 3rd gen and early 4th gen 9's and 40's. Problems seem to stem from changing springs, ejectors and going to third party supplied MIM extractors. Too many different issues to cover like others have said do a google search if interested. I will say that the 9 mm seemed to run/eject fine with full power defense loads. Problems seemed to mostly have to do with the cheap practice loads then they would bounce cases off your head ftf, fte. These issues are not just with Glock, it is sad that unlike in the past, while maybe not a good idea, you could buy a NIB Sig or Glock, load it up and have a high degree of confidence that it would work if needed. This is no longer the case with either of these two brands, I have seen reports of 3rd gen Glock 19's working fine for the first 800 rounds and then starting to jam unlike the older ones that just seemed to run forever.

 

[photoman]

Lots of documented problems with the recent Glocks. Not sure if it's design or increased production (inadequate QC) that is causing the problems.

I've carried Glock since 1998 and am not in any mood to buy a newer one due to these issues. That's what brought me to the 3rd gen section, to study up on them as a potential carry piece. Like Mack said, seems like you have to buy an older gun to get quality any more.

 

[mscampbell2734]

First, we've always preferred the .45 here in LA, just hard to get a good one approved for duty use. To be blunt when it comes to shooting people bigger is better

For the person asking, 98% of the Smith .45 being bought and sold in LA are used guns.

As the Glock 22 being dropped in favor of the 17, cost was NOT a factor. Problems with the caliber was the deciding factor.

And the biggest reason HKs are not approved is cost. It's a good weapon but not a truly superior weapon. If it was approved officers would have to buy it out of their own pocket.

 

[mscampbell2734]

Curious to what issues the Glock 22 is having? He and his partner both carry the Glock 22, so he was hoping you would post the issues. Thanks

Biggest issue we had was/is excessive breach face erosion. By excessive we had some Academy classes have the slides on their guns replaced by the time they left the Academy.

To some extent this was a function of the Winchester WinClean ammo we used for training. We have since go back to regular ball ammo but the damage to the Glock rep is done.

We had NO Glock bugle/case blowouts.

Other issue was the sharp recoil was having a negative impact on qualification ratios.

 

[MTS Cop]

Interesting LAPD thread. I had no idea anyone out there was still carrying the 3rd gen guns.

The NYPD and RCMP still issue the 5946. Those are two pretty significant users. The 3rd Gens are still holding on.

 

[snowman.45]

My department issues the Glocks in 9 mm. Our old Chief could not be talked into a caliber change when we went from the Sig P226 to the Glocks. We can't complain, in that all of our shootings have ended appropriately. The Glocks in 9 mm work fine, although I would prefer a larger caliber (preferably .45). I first carried a Glock in about 1990 at another agency and in .45 ACP. It was a good pistol, and I can't complain. However, it did replace my 4506, and I've missed that pistol ever since.

After 35 years as a cop, I have to say I'd carry a 4506/4566/4516 in a minute, and still have a 4566 and a 1066. Now, with my old butt firmly placed behind a desk most of the time, I might have to consider a light weight, like a 4513, but I be please to go back to the platform.

 

[Tim Nagel]

My department issues the Glocks in 9 mm. Our old Chief could not be talked into a caliber change when we went from the Sig P226 to the Glocks. We can't complain, in that all of our shootings have ended appropriately. The Glocks in 9 mm work fine, although I would prefer a larger caliber (preferably .45). I first carried a Glock in about 1990 at another agency and in .45 ACP. It was a good pistol, and I can't complain. However, it did replace my 4506, and I've missed that pistol ever since.

After 35 years as a cop, I have to say I'd carry a 4506/4566/4516 in a minute, and still have a 4566 and a 1066. Now, with my old butt firmly placed behind a desk most of the time, I might have to consider a light weight, like a 4513, but I be please to go back to the platform.

35 years, WOW I thought I was a dinosaur! 20 years here, I started with a revolver in 1988, things sure have changed. I still carry my 4506 (off duty) but as age is setting in I find myself carrying a Glock more often!
Maybe S&W will offer the 4506/4566 in special runs someday, they could sell a boat load! Stay safe everybody!

 

[Outrider]

This type of thread is why I signed up here!

Goooooood, useful, informative stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, Smith discontinued their Centennial series -- but out of the ashes rose the 640s and 340s.

It was people yelling loud, long, hard -- and in the right ears -- that brought those great guns back.

Jeff Cooper yelling loud, long, hard -- and in the right ears -- brought the 1911 into its rightful place in the nation's mindset for that gun. Before Cooper, 1911s were considered slabs of inaccurate steel right next to hammers in usefulness and respect.

Cowboy action shooting arguably (along with Ruger) saved the old Colt .45 style guns.

The upshot of all this?

Keep hammering Smith on the Third Gens -- show them a steady, consistent profit base that they're missing -- and they'll be hard pressed NOT to bring back the 4500 series -- alongside the 1000 series -- and maybe even the other Third Gens folks love.

Sure, it'll take a while, but they still have the machinery and whatever basics and templates they need. It's a matter of motivation. They don't want to bring back a phased out line -- only to see it flop again.

Money -- and opportunity -- motivate. Departments besides the LAPD HAVE to demand Third Gen guns again. Five or six guns here and there from guys like you and me won't do it. It takes a groundswell of steady demand -- and that's what we have to work at generating.

(Impossible, you say? You've got to remember, Smith said they'd never make 1911s -- and they would have choked to death laughing if you'd have ever predicted they'd be making ARs...)

The takeaway here? Keep up the pressure -- while attempting to build a broad, influential base the way Cooper did with his magazine articles and his bully pulpit !!!!!!!!

If Smith sees Third Gens as a steady, reliable, consistent profit base, these guns will very likely find at least a basic toehold in the Smith line again.

Every business has to keep asking, "What have you done for me lately?" It's the same with Third Gens.

If the Third Gens were still selling -- profitably -- like cool lemonade in H*ll when they first started to be phased out in the early 1990s, the guns never would have gone on hiatus in the first place.

(Oh, yeah, Browning said the Auto-5 was gone forever, too -- and need we mention the Winchester model 70?....)