LAPD S&W 45 Decocker school?

[CALREB]

YEP,the only problem is WHEN you experience that FIRST FTF,after 5000 rounds or when some gang member is drawing down on you,would not be good,and unlike other autos you have to do a tap/rack no ability to just press the trigger again. Even the + 1 bar doesnt guarantee it will never happen or happen again. The LAPD D/C school would just be to familiarize recruits only trained with a glock,with use of the D/C on Berettas and S/W semi auto pistols that are already approved for officers trained with those type weapons in the academy or during a revolver to Semi auto transition school years ago or from a rev to glock school.LAPD does not allow the D/C to be used as a safety,no weapons carried with it in the down position,but does teach putting it into the safe position for administrative purposes,loading /unloading/chamber checking.The school would be to ingrain those techniques before allowing the different type semi auto to be carried,slide stop usage,and also cover additional malfunctions that might occur with the non-glock pistols( FTF due to mag being unlocked) etc,also must qualify with the new pistol. Then officer probably has to qual monthly instead or every other month for 12 quals I think that would be about all that would be covered,also care and cleaning maybe.

 

[Poohgyrr]

In handguns, one size does not fit all. Regards 18DAI.

Absolutely. I have always thought it is good to have more options, or "more tools in your toolbox"....

Some people dislike the large size, and action, of the G21 grip. Others dislike the weight, and action, of the S&W 4506. Myself, I simply want a handgun that helps me put rounds on target - and I do not want one that handicaps me. But, what do I know?

 

[Fishslayer]

Ruger might make something folks want though. Regards 18DAI.

Maybe. If I heard it right they are discontinuing the P90 & P94/944.

And Rugerites have been clamoring for a Ruger 1911 for ages.

Just think. All that room on the slide for safety warnings and owner's manual...

I'll have the 4506, thank you.

 

[18DAI]

I spoke to my LAPD contact.

The good news keeps on coming!!

The 1911 has been approved for those patrol officers currently shooting expert. If you currently are qualified expert - and want to carry the 1911 - you can sign up for the course which commences in March.

If you pass the course - no guarantee as LAPD firearms courses are not easy - you have to then qualify once a month for a year, then every other month for the following year.

Certain models of the 1911 from Colt, Springfield and Kimber are what can be used. There are certain features that must be present. My contact did not have all the details.

While I don't think the 1911 is the best choice for a duty pistol, it's nice that those expert qualified shooters, who prefer the 1911, can use it. Choice is a good thing to have.

Previously only members of SWAT and SIS who were qualified on the 1911, could continue to carry it in new assignments. now the mere mortals ( ) of the patrol division will be able to as well.

The new chief, Chief Beck, seems to be a cops cop. Regards 18DAI.

 

[Outrider]

Why decocker "school"?

Folks,

I have to ask the painfully obvious question:

Why is there even such a thing as "decocker" school?

I mean, this isn't rocket..surgery... (Boy, that infinitesimal pun is going to get old fast...That'll be the only time you EVER see me use it...Promise!)

Seriously, decocking isn't that tough -- although it requires some forethought...What does this school cover -- and WHY?

(That is, unless you're Denzel Washington -- in Training Day -- and in one scene the safeties are on your 4506s -- and the next instant later -- they're not...Then, in that case, maybe Denzel needed some training -- that day. But decocking isn't that hard a thing to master -- unless somebody hasn't told me something.)

And of course, decocking a 1911 -- logically -- isn't something that should be done -- except to drop the mag and rack the slide.

That's one reason I don't love 1911s. Yeah, I've lowered the hammer carefully -- but DON'T like the suspense...

 

[SW CQB 45]

While I don't think the 1911 is the best choice for a duty pistol, it's nice that those expert qualified shooters, who prefer the 1911, can use it. Choice is a good thing to have.

1911s are not for everyone but if someone wants to carry one, they need to show extreme proficiency to a competent instructor who can give their opinion on whether 1911 is appropriate for their level or not.

having one and being able to hit is one thing but having one and knowing all the quirks and getting it into action right away is preferred.

my 2cents

 

[Tim Nagel]

Good to hear LAPD has a Chief that understands one pistol doesn't fit everyone. I hope S&W takes note and sees that not everyone wants a polymer pistol. As its been said many times S&W could sell a boat load of 3rd generation 4506's and 4566's. S&W should put all their eggs in one basket with the M&P line!

 

[vista461]

Folks,

I have to ask the painfully obvious question:

Why is there even such a thing as "decocker" school?

I am guessing its for people that have been using glocks and now need to build up a different muscle memory. They're used to just putting their glocks back in the holster and if they do that with the 3rd gen Smith they will be putting a cocked firearm in their holster or conversely they may decock but not have the muscle memory to take the safety off on the draw or whenever they train to do it, since there isn't a manual safety on a glock.

Just my .02

 

[Ethang]

I spoke to my LAPD contact.

The good news keeps on coming!!

The 1911 has been approved for those patrol officers currently shooting expert. If you currently are qualified expert - and want to carry the 1911 - you can sign up for the course which commences in March.

If you pass the course - no guarantee as LAPD firearms courses are not easy - you have to then qualify once a month for a year, then every other month for the following year.

Certain models of the 1911 from Colt, Springfield and Kimber are what can be used. There are certain features that must be present. My contact did not have all the details.

While I don't think the 1911 is the best choice for a duty pistol, it's nice that those expert qualified shooters, who prefer the 1911, can use it. Choice is a good thing to have.

Previously only members of SWAT and SIS who were qualified on the 1911, could continue to carry it in new assignments. now the mere mortals ( ) of the patrol division will be able to as well.

The new chief, Chief Beck, seems to be a cops cop. Regards 18DAI.

I am jealous. Ours is a one size fits all, take the M&P and that is it. Heck we just got hollow points back. It would be very nice to have a choice in what we carry. Maybe one day.

 

[c3 rolling]

I just took the LAPD decocker transition school with my 4506-1. It was 3 days long, 10 hour days. My fingers were blistered and bleeding from doing so many chamber checks! I thought it was ridiculous to have a 3 day school just to learn how to de cock but now I think it was definitely worth it. The 4506 is a completely different animal than the Glock 22 I was trained with. I shoot better (currently expert) and love the feel of the weapon, minus the high amount of muzzle flip. I never liked my Glock due to the look, feel, and the way it fired. It developed issues with failing to feed and eject rounds after 5 k + rounds fired.

 

[boingboing]

I never liked my Glock due to the look, feel, and the way it fired. It developed issues with failing to feed rounds and eject rounds after 5 k + rounds.

Yeah, but if you drank the kool aid it would have never developed issues, didn't you know that? ROF!!!

 

[18DAI]

Welcome to the forum c3 rolling!

I look forward to hearing your experiences with S&W 45's! Regards 18DAI.

 

[azasadny]

Wow!

I picked these up from a company called Grips4U. They are quite unique and I like them allot.

Wow! Those grips are beautiful! I'm going to order a set for my 645 as I still have the stock plastic grips on it. The wood grips look fantastic!

 

[Fastbolt]

I just took the LAPD decocker transition school with my 4506-1. It was 3 days long, 10 hour days. My fingers were blistered and bleeding from doing so many chamber checks! I thought it was ridiculous to have a 3 day school just to learn how to de cock but now I think it was definitely worth it. The 4506 is a completely different animal than the Glock 22 I was trained with. I shoot better (currently expert) and love the feel of the weapon, minus the high amount of muzzle flip. I never liked my Glock due to the look, feel, and the way it fired. It developed issues with failing to feed and eject rounds after 5 k + rounds fired.

Yep, it takes some time to develop the ingrained manipulation skills (and response) to decock the 3rd gen guns (and return the lever up to the ready-to-fire position at the appropriate time). Similar to how depressing the thumb safety lock has to be done on a 1911 to shoot, and then returned up to the On-Safe condition at the appropriate time. Neither of which is required with the Glock, so it makes sense that the platforms with the extra manipulations involved take some additional training and practice for users.

As far as the G22's feeding/ejection issues after 5K+ rounds?

Well, back about '08 Glock released a Wearable Parts Replacement Schedule for Glock .40's in use with LE. The recommended replacement interval for the G22's recoil spring assembly was listed at 2,500 rounds, with the interval for the mag springs listed at 2,500-4,000 rounds ... and then the disclaimer that for best results the recoil spring assembly should be checked (using the field recoil spring test) at each range or qual session, and to replace mag springs at least every other time the recoil spring is replaced.

The newest armorer manual simply says that the recoil & mag springs are among the 9 springs that may require attention at some point ... (and the new captive recoil spring assembly for the Gen4 G22's will probably run for 5-7K rounds according to the info received from Glock).

I tend to suspect that some folks tried to run springs for longer than might be practical or prudent for LE service guns, but that's just my thoughts.

Enjoy the 4506. Good gun.

 

[Tim Nagel]

Hey "18DAI" your contact at LAPD have any estimate about how many Officers have transitioned to the S&W 4506/4566 pistol?
"c3rolling" I have one of the early 3rd generation Glock 22's, it has in excess of 12,000 rounds with a weapon light installed never has had any malfunctions, I much prefer the S&W 4506 or 1911 pistol, but I can't fault the Glock!

 

[18DAI]

Hi Tim Nagel,

No I've not had contact with him in some time. Last word was there were "quite a few more than expected" making the transition.

I have noticed fewer 4566's and 4506's available on the auction boards lately. Maybe its coincidence. Regards 18DAI.

 

[Mike Grasso]

Interesting, Interesting.

I taught the original transition school in the late 80s when we first went to Beretta and Smiths. Just before the North Hollywood Shootout, Larry Mudgett and myself got the S&W approved by the Police Commission. The 645's and 4506's became very popular until the Glock craze. I even had one of the rare all blue steel models 4505 (should of never sold it) and one the PC built for me. Since Glock had all the problems with their 45 version many officers wanted to carry the S&W's again. Some couldn't "revert" because they started their careers with the Glock. If you started with a firearm that had no "manual" safety, i.e.. the revolver or Glock you needed to go through the transition school. Our schools are not the easiest to complete and do cause quite a bit of "muscle memory" to be had.

With the advent of the 1911 program (I've been carrying one for quite a while) much of the fervor is pointed in that direction. The 1911 weapon system is definitely a "professional" system and needs it's own "muscle memory" trained in.

Mike
30+ and still going...

 

[Fastbolt]

Interesting, Interesting.

I taught the original transition school in the late 80s when we first went to Beretta and Smiths. Just before the North Hollywood Shootout, Larry Mudgett and myself got the S&W approved by the Police Commission. The 645's and 4506's became very popular until the Glock craze. I even had one of the rare all blue steel models 4505 (should of never sold it) and one the PC built for me. Since Glock had all the problems with their 45 version many officers wanted to carry the S&W's again. Some couldn't "revert" because they started their careers with the Glock. If you started with a firearm that had no "manual" safety, i.e.. the revolver or Glock you needed to go through the transition school. Our schools are not the easiest to complete and do cause quite a bit of "muscle memory" to be had.

With the advent of the 1911 program (I've been carrying one for quite a while) much of the fervor is pointed in that direction. The 1911 weapon system is definitely a "professional" system and needs it's own "muscle memory" trained in.

Mike
30+ and still going...

I'll bet you regret selling the 4505.

BTW, is there a minimum "round count" expected in your S&W TDA/decocker transition training (presuming no student problems)?

When we helped set up the 1911 transition training we had the folks shoot a minimum of 2,000 rounds, without problem, before clearing them to carry the weapons on-duty. Just curious.

Also, on the S&W TDA's, are they being told to carry them off-safe/ready-to-fire or on-safe?

 

[SW CQB 45]

when I carried my CQB on duty, I switch to a manual decocker to utilize trimmed Ed Brown dehorned paddles.

I always carried down (decocker down) and when coming out of a level three holster on the same fluid motion...swept the decocker up.

made a definite "click" that made several look at the muzzle end of the CQB.

I think I read on a previous post where the decockers were kept up (ready to go) in the holster.

my well used CQB sporting ed brown trimmed paddles.

 

[Mr. Bacon]

I found this on the ground somewhere...

Dated March 1, 2011. -

Personnel, who were issued a revolver when initially hired, are only authorized to carry a revolver, unless they have successfully completed the Department’s Semi-Automatic Pistol Transition Course. All revolvers must be in .38 Special caliber and double action only, by design, or as modified by a Department Armorer.

Personnel who were issued a Beretta pistol when initially hired, are only authorized to carry a Beretta or Smith and Wesson, semi-automatic pistol, as their primary duty weapon. However, they may also carry a Glock pistol if they have successfully completed the Department’s Glock Transition Course.

Personnel who were issued a Glock pistol when initially hired, are only authorized to carry Glock semi-automatic pistols. These Officers may also carry a Smith and Wesson or Beretta semi-automatic pistol only if they have successfully completed the Department’s Double Action Semi-Automatic School (Decocker School).

All personnel, who were originally trained with a semi-automatic pistol (Glock or Beretta) may also carry a revolver as a back-up or off-duty firearm, if they have successfully completed the Back-up Firearms Course. This course is usually completed during initial Academy training.

The .45 Caliber Handgun Transition Course has been phased out by the Department. All personnel may carry .45 caliber pistols, only in those weapons systems that they have been trained and certified to use.

Personnel who have attended the Pistol With Attached Light (PWAL) training, are authorized to attach an approved lighting system to a Beretta, Smith and Wesson, Glock or 1911 pistol. Pistols utilizing a light must be originally manufactured with a rail. Aftermarket rail attachment systems are not authorized and will not be installed by the Department Armory. A Department approved holster must be utilized in conjunction with the PWAL.


BTW, Ruger LCP and S&W Bodyguard have also been approved. Both are .380.