Full size steel automatics.

[fighter62]

I recently picked up two very nice 4506-1's.

One is all stock, LNIB and another one is also like but with some work done by "Actions by T".

Both are very good shooting guns out to 50 yards. Feed all ammo I tried, hardly kick at all, pleasure to shoot for fun, easy to carry with right leather.

It seems like they did not get the popularity they deserve. Why?

What LE agenicies use or used 4506 platform?

 

[Racer X]

here's a question I have always wondered. Is the recoil of a .45ACP much lower, because it is a larger heavier bullet with lower velocity, usually in a large framed pistol? A shooting buddy says his ParaOrdinance P14-45 has hardly any recoil relative to my 9mm pistols.

 

[OKFC05]

here's a question I have always wondered. Is the recoil of a .45ACP much lower, because it is a larger heavier bullet with lower velocity, usually in a large framed pistol? A shooting buddy says his ParaOrdinance P14-45 has hardly any recoil relative to my 9mm pistols.

Plug your numbers into this calculator and it will tell you the numbers produced by different weight guns and different cartridges.
As to what you or your buddy feel, well, nobody knows because everybody is different.

Recoil Calculator

 

[Silversmok3]

here's a question I have always wondered. Is the recoil of a .45ACP much lower, because it is a larger heavier bullet with lower velocity, usually in a large framed pistol? A shooting buddy says his ParaOrdinance P14-45 has hardly any recoil relative to my 9mm pistols.

Recoil is always a subjective thing. What counts as 'no recoil' to one person could be 'excessive recoil' to someone else.

Personally id rate the recoil on my 4506 as less than I felt on my .40 S&W beretta full size.The worst round IMO for recoil is .40S&W on a small frame gun, and 9mm+p on a poly frame handgun.

 

[4506517]

Well, the 4506 is my all time favorite pistol. I own two and a 1006. I also have a line on a NIB 4506. Locally the city PD issued them as did the local HBU's police.

I think if the 4506 was modernized they would sell boat loads. Give it all the TSW upgrades and an integrated rail and you would have one h*** of a serious shooting iron. I don't understand why the 4506 isn't more widely employed. We live in a time when more companies make 1911s or parts for them than at any time in history. In a way the 4506 kind of reminds me of an updated 1911 with the single stack 5 inch barrel goodness.

 

[Silversmok3]

Well, the 4506 is my all time favorite pistol. I own two and a 1006. I also have a line on a NIB 4506. Locally the city PD issued them as did the local HBU's police.

I think if the 4506 was modernized they would sell boat loads. Give it all the TSW upgrades and an integrated rail and you would have one h*** of a serious shooting iron. I don't understand why the 4506 isn't more widely employed. We live in a time when more companies make 1911s or parts for them than at any time in history. In a way the 4506 kind of reminds me of an updated 1911 with the single stack 5 inch barrel goodness.

Reason? Money.

I remember a post that Glock employees pay $11 for a stripped frame. Considering the low cost of making plastic I believe it.

Why would S&W mill and machine a metal handgun with its expensive metal hammer, metal springs, metal safety,steel trigger,and metal decocker when the option exists to just mold a cheap polymer frame in whatever space age shape you can patent, stick a striker in the slide and charge the same for the finished product?

1911's are popular because IMO of the hype of it being "100 years" and it being the gun of choice for competition shooters.American made off the shelf models-and some foreign ones ( *cough*Springfield Armory *cough*)-retail out the door for $1000+.

S&W could theoretically release a 4506 version 2.0 , but why sink the money into building it when they're sleeping on $100 bills thanks to the M&P?

 

[amazingflapjack]

$$$$

Bingo! It would be interesting to have one of our number wizzard members do a projection on what some of the fmous, and now popular again, S&W's would cost if produced today. I would guess that A 4506 would be marketable at about 2 G's a throw (?). Flapjack.

 

[vista461]

There are enough used 4506's out there that I don't think they could get $2K for a non PC version. Maybe $900-1100. Right around mid level 1911 prices

 

[4506517]

Disagree on the +$2000 pricepoint. They are already set up and manufacturing the 4566 for recent contracts. They also tooled up and produced a 1911 for less than $1000. If they no longer produced any steel frame guns I would agree, bit that isn't the case. I've read threads here where people find guns with fired casings as recent as 2009. Couple that with the fact that so many parts are now CNCed almost to exact spec removing many finishing steps. I suspect the real reason is there is more profit in poly not the fact that there is no profit in producing 3rd gen guns.

 

[Silversmok3]

Disagree on the +$2000 pricepoint. They are already set up and manufacturing the 4566 for recent contracts. They also tooled up and produced a 1911 for less than $1000. If they no longer produced any steel frame guns I would agree, bit that isn't the case. I've read threads here where people find guns with fired casings as recent as 2009. Couple that with the fact that so many parts are now CNCed almost to exact spec removing many finishing steps. I suspect the real reason is there is more profit in poly not the fact that there is no profit in producing 3rd gen guns.

On this we agree. Why should they invest in increasing low-rate production of 3rd gen weapons when they can market the M&P for the same purpose at greater profit?

 

[4506517]

Exactly! It is called margin. While the poly pistols may cost less, a larger percentage of the price is profit. No matter what S&W says, I think they can comfortably produce steel framed autos. If they couldn't, they would have stopped making the 1911s, the. 22s, etc. Heck, they have to be well set up for working steel since I've never seen them produce a poly revolver (maybe they have). My point is that due to the overwhelming majority of the guns they have produced are made from some type of metal, if they haven't mastered cost effective production by now they never will.

I bet if something happened today that proved poly pistols were inferior (not saying they are, just speaking hypothetically) S&W would have all steel "4th gens" on the shelves by the end of the following week.

 

[fighter62]

Not only I recently got two 4506-1's, But I also had a chance to play with the most recent 5906 ( right before the stopped making them for general public).

I tell You , the size , the way it recoils , the trigger, the feel......AWSOME!!!!!!

Some say all steel Smiths are heavy.

So are the 1911's, High Powers, Stainless Sig's, full size CZ's, etc.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Don't forget they also make the (awesome) 952 and now new 4566's for the WVSP.

I think it has more to do with perceived market share in the LEO/military market and the fact that they target Glock as their big competitor there.

They should crank out 4th gens - thereby having both high quality all metal guns as well as polymer framed ones. Just like Beretta, Sig, and a few others do, which I've said many times on this board.

I know the title of this thread is "full size steel automatics" but in this regard, let's face it, high strength aluminum alloys and scandium framed guns are awesome when done right and should be included. I do love my 5906 for range work but the '03's are a little easier on the hip!

With that in mind, maybe we should start a new thread- (I've been thinking about this for a long time!) Which "4th Generation" guns should be produced? What should the 4th gen all metal S&W's look like and what features should they have?

Here's a start for me:

Definitely the full size "classics"; 5906/03; 4006/03; 4506

Plus- the all time best metal compact CCW pistols:

4040 ("Shorty 40")
3913
4013
4513
CS9
CS40
CS45

Scandium framed versions of the 3913/4013 and CS guns
From a marketing perspective- maybe change the CS name to CCW9, CCW40, etc.
Melonite/blackened option
Factory night sights
Delrin grips and new, thinner factory checkered wood grips- easily replacable by owner
Slightly de-horned from earlier models
Guide rod laser options (for those who want lasers)
No rails for me!
I'm not a DAO guy but probably they would need to offer a version with that system.

 

[quneur]

I doubt you will ever see S&W continue the 3rd gens. The cost is too much for the demand. Initial costs would at the very least include: Committing floor place, CNC machinery, QC planning and implementation, design team + machinist, logistics (shipping). All this vs. a steel 1911 made overseas (Turkey, Spain, Philipines, etc.)

The only way I see this being viable is if some hot new caliber comes to market (which would be a small bore caliber (?) or something hotter than the 10mm - one for self-defense the other for big game hunting).

The other alternative would be to contract overseas and import parts or the whole gun, just like Kimber did with Daewoo.

 

[4506517]

I disagree. They are already producing 4566s for at least one documented agency. All the initial requirements are already in place. There are no "start up costs" because they already have the ability and are producing. If I am not mistaken, and someone correct me if I am wrong, they have an seperate location dedicated to the production of metal framed autos.

No, the problem is what they feel threatened by Glock's overwhelming presence in the LE market. The LE market was previously dominated by S&W. That was the entire reason the M&P was designed. If that wasn't the case, they would have allowed the Sigma design to soldier on by itself.

Again, S&W could viably produce these guns again. They produce a very high quality 1911 at an affordable price, entirely of domestically produced parts. There is no reason they couldn't again produce the 3rd generation guns.

 

[Silversmok3]

I disagree. They are already producing 4566s for at least one documented agency. All the initial requirements are already in place. There are no "start up costs" because they already have the ability and are producing. If I am not mistaken, and someone correct me if I am wrong, they have an seperate location dedicated to the production of metal framed autos.

No, the problem is what they feel threatened by Glock's overwhelming presence in the LE market. The LE market was previously dominated by S&W. That was the entire reason the M&P was designed. If that wasn't the case, they would have allowed the Sigma design to soldier on by itself.

Again, S&W could viably produce these guns again. They produce a very high quality 1911 at an affordable price, entirely of domestically produced parts. There is no reason they couldn't again produce the 3rd generation guns.

There's actually several good reasons.

Now, one must remember WHY the Glock took over the law enforcement field to begin with.

One was liability-Most of the S&W steel frame weapons are DA/SA handguns, which caused problems when shady prosecutors tried to hang officers on negligence charges for shooting suspects with a gun capable of being cocked. Massad Ayoob has better details on this sort of thing, but long story short DAO started being favored by department heads to protect LEOs in court. And according to the ATF Glocks are DAO.Coincidence?

Two was cost-Glocks being made from low cost plastic frames that company could undercut S&W at every turn for the LEO market. Bean counters make decisions in government more than one thinks, and having a police department trade in their heavy , metal S&Ws for lightweight, new, affordable Glocks made sense for the police department's bottom line, and it made sense for Glock.

Three-Ease of use. Its very simple to train someone to shoot an M&P or a Glock. Draw, point , and shoot.Training someone to effectively shoot a DA/SA gun takes much more time and much more ammo, both of which cost money communities today simply do not have.

Four-For what its worth there is not much interest in the private sector for steel frame semi-autos now.Outside of the popular 1911 and Beretta series metal frame guns are passe' in the new gun case. Poly frame guns are lighter , cheaper,and have better ergonomics than most metal frame guns.These days when the average new gun person thinks semi-auto pistol the word "Glock" comes into mind. In this polymer marketplace a heavy & expensive alternative wont get very far.