jimbo728
Member
32 years with my 539. No failures with anything. And if I had to hit someone when it`s empty, they are going down.
Jim
Jim
What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?
- Thread starter heekma
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TexasRaider
Member
Heavy and limited rounds? Don't buy that argument. 1911's are still wildly popular with many military and LEO units, and they are generally much heavier and have fewer rounds than any polymer unit.
Perception, in my humble musings, made S&W kill them. As pointed out, Sig and Beretta still sell many metal guns. Smith saw Glock as their greatest competitor and abandoned that market. Ironically, by doing so, probably increased Sig's sale of the classic P Series pistols.
Personally, again IMHO, the "need" for a polymer 18 round pistol is largely just perception. A Sig P229 is not an 8 Track player or a buggy whip. It is not obsolete or useless, it's just that buyers perceive the newer plastic strikers as 'better' and more advanced. Yes, they are a bit cheaper to buy and produce (makes for a large margin), but a 2nd Gen S&W 459 held 14+1 rounds, a 3rd Gen did too. Those are not obsolete weapons, and I'd argue their heft makes shooting hotter 9mm loads easier.
I'd much rather have a nice 3rd Gen Smith or Sig P228 any day over a Tupperware striker for many reasons, but the market didn't see it that way. I wish Smith would bring them back, surely they could be made today much more cost effectively than they were in 1990, but alas....
Perception, in my humble musings, made S&W kill them. As pointed out, Sig and Beretta still sell many metal guns. Smith saw Glock as their greatest competitor and abandoned that market. Ironically, by doing so, probably increased Sig's sale of the classic P Series pistols.
Personally, again IMHO, the "need" for a polymer 18 round pistol is largely just perception. A Sig P229 is not an 8 Track player or a buggy whip. It is not obsolete or useless, it's just that buyers perceive the newer plastic strikers as 'better' and more advanced. Yes, they are a bit cheaper to buy and produce (makes for a large margin), but a 2nd Gen S&W 459 held 14+1 rounds, a 3rd Gen did too. Those are not obsolete weapons, and I'd argue their heft makes shooting hotter 9mm loads easier.
I'd much rather have a nice 3rd Gen Smith or Sig P228 any day over a Tupperware striker for many reasons, but the market didn't see it that way. I wish Smith would bring them back, surely they could be made today much more cost effectively than they were in 1990, but alas....
They didn't want to compete...
They didn't want to compete with their own guns but as far as I'm concerned they could have left the 3rd gens in the line as a 'classic' because they are dang good guns. I really think it's a gyp (is that proper?) that even parts for 3rd gens are getting harder to come by. That's wishing because they probably wouldn't make any money by re-introducing the 3rd gens even though there are a lot of enthusiasts out here, to today's generation metal = crude and old fashioned. Like I said though, limited run of select models as a 'Classic' would be great.
They didn't want to compete with their own guns but as far as I'm concerned they could have left the 3rd gens in the line as a 'classic' because they are dang good guns. I really think it's a gyp (is that proper?) that even parts for 3rd gens are getting harder to come by. That's wishing because they probably wouldn't make any money by re-introducing the 3rd gens even though there are a lot of enthusiasts out here, to today's generation metal = crude and old fashioned. Like I said though, limited run of select models as a 'Classic' would be great.
kbm6893
Member
I've owned white a few 3rd gen pistols. Probably close to 10. I no longer have one, due to the slow (if any) support the factory gives. I know they are as tough as nails and will rarely need maintenance beyond springs which are pretty easy to get. But unless I know the original owner and how many rounds he put through the gun, I can't know if the use I put them through is going to be the breaking point. If S&W still actively supported them (and they should since the have a "lifetime warranty") the 5906 would still be my house gun. It's been replaced with a Ruger SR9. Not nearly as classy as the 5906 is, but it has the manual safety and the magazine disconnect that I prefer on a gun. I just don't want to have to wait months for parts or service.
But the reason for the demise has already been stated. If someone just wants a gun to launch a bullet, a striker fired M&P will do that reliably, and it's cheaper to make, cheaper to purchase, and reliable. Now, if somebody also wants a gun with a little more pride of ownership, the metal, hammer fired 3rd gens are the way to go.
I mean, who here can imagine bequeathing their Glock or M&P (or SR9) to their child? It would be like passing down a toilet plunger. "Here Son. This has unclogged many a toilet. It's yours now. Take good care of it". My kids are young and they have zero interest in my SR9 or LC9-S that I have. But when they see my Beretta 92 or any of my old revolvers, they immediately perk right up.
But the reason for the demise has already been stated. If someone just wants a gun to launch a bullet, a striker fired M&P will do that reliably, and it's cheaper to make, cheaper to purchase, and reliable. Now, if somebody also wants a gun with a little more pride of ownership, the metal, hammer fired 3rd gens are the way to go.
I mean, who here can imagine bequeathing their Glock or M&P (or SR9) to their child? It would be like passing down a toilet plunger. "Here Son. This has unclogged many a toilet. It's yours now. Take good care of it". My kids are young and they have zero interest in my SR9 or LC9-S that I have. But when they see my Beretta 92 or any of my old revolvers, they immediately perk right up.
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Texasgordo
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I have a question about the old S&W semi autos. It's not a complaint, I'm just curious.
Why were so many variations of basically the same pistol?
Edit: I have a 59 and a 5906 but I know that there are many variations between the two.
Why were so many variations of basically the same pistol?
Edit: I have a 59 and a 5906 but I know that there are many variations between the two.
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Talk about variations? 
Have you been to Sig's website lately? 
Mainsail
Member
I don't think anything (glock, polymer, gov contracts, etc.) 'drove' Smith to drop their steel line except profitability. Steel/alloy guns still sell, and sell very well. (In the current market everything is selling well.) Smith chose to adjust their business model towards the plastic market and away from the steel and alloy guns. Had they kept the lines going I'm sure they could move every all-metal gun they made, just the profit would be lower.
To be mass market competitive every manufacturer 'must' have a poly-striker gun that they can put in the display window of gun shops or online; the steel guns will sell as well but with a lower profit margin.
Hand made and hand fitted are relics for any mass market industry. Modern "product realization" focuses on just-in-time logistics, modularity, remove-and-replace, and disposable.
To be mass market competitive every manufacturer 'must' have a poly-striker gun that they can put in the display window of gun shops or online; the steel guns will sell as well but with a lower profit margin.
Hand made and hand fitted are relics for any mass market industry. Modern "product realization" focuses on just-in-time logistics, modularity, remove-and-replace, and disposable.
Simple.......People quit buying "em". When a product is no longer profitable the manufacturer drops it and goes to something else.
Sig just re-issued their classic P225, the closest thing to S&W's alloy-framed, single-stack 3913/14. Sig updated a few things on the new P225; most notably the slide is now fully machined instead of being stamped and welded. MSRP for the recently re-issued P225 is almost $1200., when demand settles the street price will likely be around $1000.
They'll probably sell every new 225 they make, just like the rest of the P-series (220, 226, 227, 229, 239 and others). Sig has even announced a re-chambered .45 ACP P220 single-stack pistol in 10mm; they'll probably sell every one of those too, judging from all the folks over on the Sig Forum itching to buy them.
If Sig can sell a re-issued P225 for over a grand, perhaps S&W will take note and bring back their 3rd generation alloy-framed pistols.
They'll probably sell every new 225 they make, just like the rest of the P-series (220, 226, 227, 229, 239 and others). Sig has even announced a re-chambered .45 ACP P220 single-stack pistol in 10mm; they'll probably sell every one of those too, judging from all the folks over on the Sig Forum itching to buy them.
If Sig can sell a re-issued P225 for over a grand, perhaps S&W will take note and bring back their 3rd generation alloy-framed pistols.
P33v3
Member
That's exactly what I was told by S&W. They said that were they to re-tool and begin manufacturing them again in any numbers they'd cost $1200.00 MSRP, which means at least $1000.00 in store probably which is not far off of Sig Sauer prices.
kbm6893
Member
What did they do with the original equipment used to make the 3rd gen's? And they still make limited runs for police departments that still issue 3rd gen's, so they already have the equipment set up somewhere. Just increase production.
As for businesses always doing what is best for the company, tell that to Colt. A premiere American made product has declared bankruptcy how many times now? They no longer make revolvers, the M4 contract has gone to FN, and their AR-15 is no longer the only game in town since pretty much everybody makes an AR (and a 1911, for that matter).
The M&P series is a success. No doubt about it. I think they're a better weapon than Glock, but Glock beat S&W to the punch so they're pretty much always going to be behind Glock when it comes to Tupperware sales. But there is no doubt that the 3rd gen's still have a market. As for MSRP, I'm calling BS on that one. SIG's don't need to be as expensive as they are, it's just people buying the name. S&W doesn't enjoy that elite reputation. Beretta and CZ still make metal framed hammer fired guns for a reasonable price. If they reintroduced the 5906 and put a $1000 price tag on it, even I wouldn't buy it. It's not worth $1000, especially with all the plastic and MIM parts the new one would have.
As for businesses always doing what is best for the company, tell that to Colt. A premiere American made product has declared bankruptcy how many times now? They no longer make revolvers, the M4 contract has gone to FN, and their AR-15 is no longer the only game in town since pretty much everybody makes an AR (and a 1911, for that matter).
The M&P series is a success. No doubt about it. I think they're a better weapon than Glock, but Glock beat S&W to the punch so they're pretty much always going to be behind Glock when it comes to Tupperware sales. But there is no doubt that the 3rd gen's still have a market. As for MSRP, I'm calling BS on that one. SIG's don't need to be as expensive as they are, it's just people buying the name. S&W doesn't enjoy that elite reputation. Beretta and CZ still make metal framed hammer fired guns for a reasonable price. If they reintroduced the 5906 and put a $1000 price tag on it, even I wouldn't buy it. It's not worth $1000, especially with all the plastic and MIM parts the new one would have.
Yea but the Seiko keeps better time
(full disclosure-I wear a Rolex)
He's right I wear a Seiko automatic dive watch........w/out my reading glasses I "think" it's a Rolex>>>>LOL
Add the weight of today's "Bat belt".... in the 50-60 my Dad's belt IIRC carried his Colt NS in .357 2-3 dump pouches cuff pouch and a ring to add his night stick....... late 60s/70s a radio the size and weight of a brick.....
...... so today..... the lighter gun the better on Officers backs.!!!
smith46wesson
Member
As a disclaimer I don’t have a lot of knowledge on the topic, however in an attempt to become more educated I’ve been doing a lot of reading. It would seem that S&W was making 3rd Generation new production pistols as recently as a few years ago. From what I can find on the internet the WV state police did a 4566 upgrade in 2011 and they made 3914 DAOs for the NYPD in 2012. Beretta, Sig Sauer, and CZ are currently producing metal framed TDA pistols, and obviously Beretta uses the same slide mounted safety/decocker setup. People are buying them, both private citizens and law enforcement. The sheriff’s deputies in the county where I work carry Sigs and I believe the PA state police have switched to the P227. It would seem to me that S&W is potentially missing the boat on sales that it could have had by not offering a pistol that they already have the capability to make. Maybe offer the scandium frame as an option to compete on the weight issue.
Apparently there is also a market for polymer framed TDA pistols. HK, FN, Sig Sauer, CZ, Beretta all produce a product of this sort. Honestly I would think that something along that line would be a way keep an iron in the fire. It would be less expensive to produce. Yet they could make it with parts commonality to the 3rd gen pistols to some extent. Anything from a complete 3rd Gen setup with the exception of the polymer frame up to a pistol that uses M&P magazines, grip inserts, sights, extractors, ect. Some form of hybrid 3rd gen/M&P would hopefully create the need for them to maintain production for a fair amount of 3rd gen components. And if they’re already making a pistol of this sort in bulk it, in theory, would make it easier for them to do an occasional production run of all metal guns.
Speaking as a younger person that was unaware of the Smith 3rd Gen pistols up until recently, I think if it was marketed properly you could generate new interest in these guns. Sometimes what’s old can be new again.
Apparently there is also a market for polymer framed TDA pistols. HK, FN, Sig Sauer, CZ, Beretta all produce a product of this sort. Honestly I would think that something along that line would be a way keep an iron in the fire. It would be less expensive to produce. Yet they could make it with parts commonality to the 3rd gen pistols to some extent. Anything from a complete 3rd Gen setup with the exception of the polymer frame up to a pistol that uses M&P magazines, grip inserts, sights, extractors, ect. Some form of hybrid 3rd gen/M&P would hopefully create the need for them to maintain production for a fair amount of 3rd gen components. And if they’re already making a pistol of this sort in bulk it, in theory, would make it easier for them to do an occasional production run of all metal guns.
Speaking as a younger person that was unaware of the Smith 3rd Gen pistols up until recently, I think if it was marketed properly you could generate new interest in these guns. Sometimes what’s old can be new again.
The local SO used 3rd gens up until the turn of the century. Now it's Glock. Except the other week I was going into the Publix and in front of me was a deputy, in uniform, with the "familiar shape" of a SS 3rd gen riding on his duty belt. I would have asked but these days LE can get a might peculiar in relation to a stranger asking about their sidearm. Joe
CQB27
US Veteran
In 2012 (the last year my department was still issuing the 5906) a new in box 5906 cost us right at $1000 per pistol, and I am pretty sure that had little markup over the cost to produce it. S&W only filled the orders once per year, so sometimes the wait for a NIB pistol was lengthy. The distributor's explanation for both price point and wait time was the factory used to produce the 5906 was dedicated to full time production of handcuffs (I think it was handcuffs) and in order to fill the annual order for 5906's they had to cease operations, reset all the required equipment, and produce the new pistols. That sounded like a very logical explanation for cost/wait time. My department had a 130 year history of holstering S&W pistols for duty use, but $1000 a copy for a police pistol was too much for even a 130 history to bear.
On a side note: When The transition to Glock was complete, all the 5906's were traded to the distributor as "credit" toward the final bill. The distributor agreed to sell back the individual officer's 5906 to each member for $275. I think the ones that weren't bought back (the majority of them, by the way) were later sold as "police trade ins" for about $375 if I remember correctly.
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TexasRaider
Member
Smith doesn't need to build an entire line of 3rd Gen's again, I'm sure that 'Gun of the Month' policy in the late 80's and early to mid 90's wasn't cheap for them and there's no need to try to replicate it now. Fair enough.
But it seems they are incredibly myopic when it comes to what S&W buyers really want. A wish list you say? Ok, here it goes:
4506 & 1006 (same money, make them on the same frame)
5906 & 6906 (again, same frame possibly?)
m10 in 10mm, both 5" & 6" (c'mon, a no-brainer)
940 J Frame 9mm (you did it once, do it again, it's really just a cylinder for the most part, ain't it?)
All stainless J Frame .22 Mag (don't care for aluminum alloy on 351 PD's frame and cylinder)
And for the love of all that's Holy in the universe, and for peace and good will towards men, DROP that idiotic frame lock and put the firing pin back on the hammer where the Heavens, Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson intended it to be!
Just a few pipe dream wishes....
But it seems they are incredibly myopic when it comes to what S&W buyers really want. A wish list you say? Ok, here it goes:
4506 & 1006 (same money, make them on the same frame)
5906 & 6906 (again, same frame possibly?)
m10 in 10mm, both 5" & 6" (c'mon, a no-brainer)
940 J Frame 9mm (you did it once, do it again, it's really just a cylinder for the most part, ain't it?)
All stainless J Frame .22 Mag (don't care for aluminum alloy on 351 PD's frame and cylinder)
And for the love of all that's Holy in the universe, and for peace and good will towards men, DROP that idiotic frame lock and put the firing pin back on the hammer where the Heavens, Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson intended it to be!
Just a few pipe dream wishes....
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jdh
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Alrighty then, color me the odd ball who is willing to spend the $1100 on an all metal pistol because this afternoon I will do something I swore I would never do. After work I will go to the LGS and take delivery of a Sig, an M11A1 to be exact. I would much rather be picking up a new S&W of the same size and action but since they don't exist I'll buy from some company that makes what I want.
This is not to say I'll trade in or otherwise dispose of the Sheild. But damn, a 39 Classic would have so nice instead of having to stoop to buying a Sig.
This is not to say I'll trade in or otherwise dispose of the Sheild. But damn, a 39 Classic would have so nice instead of having to stoop to buying a Sig.
Your post rings true. As I slowly approach the practical end of my 3rd Gen collecting and start to look at the other options before me for my remaining 4-1/2 good years, the Sig all-metal pistols appear to be the next obvious "investments" to consider. I enjoy shooting them at my (temporary) premium indoor range and my other options in all-metal handguns are either severely limited by state law or have already been adequately addressed. Plastic is fine to a point, but it just doesn't do much for me anymore.
The big problem, of course, is price. I am known locally as that poor, old "under $500" retired collector guy.
Indeed, the longstanding agreement with my good wife is that I never buy a gun that costs more than $500 without her prior approval, which is hard to get and rarely granted. To suddenly start spending double the current longstanding per-gun limit to start collecting Sigs is going to take a serious re-writing of our agreement.
I'm not saying it will be impossible, but I'm sure going to have a whole lot of difficult 'splaining to do. 
Dandecoteau
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Nothing personal against you, but your words are quotable.
I think this is very much over-used by passionate gun folks who love a certain kind of older, discontinued gun. The kind of people who hang out in this area of this site obviously love these pistols and we chase them. And while nobody is likely to drop a thousand on a new production 5906, some of us would spend that on a 1006. But that isn't my point.
The point is that our passionate, vocal little group of folks is a smidge of a slice of a tiny bit of a small partial wee little nugget of the gun buying public. If anyone who reads this can't understand that or agree to it, just visit any large firearms/shooting discussion site that isn't dedicated to one brand or type and you'll see simply by the volume of discussion.
If you don't buy that as evidence, visit ANY shooting range and make note of everything you see and try and determine what percentage is a S&W metal framed 1-2-3rd Gen.
If you can't accept that, visit any/every gun store and tell us what the percentage is there. Sure we see some (we buy them and we show them off here!) but just look at the numbers.
The passionate arguments made in favor of the 3rd Gens were more relevant a decade ago than they are now. It's not because the pistols are worse now and new guns are better (no way), it's because TIME HAS PASSED. The world has evolved.
The answer to the question of WHY the 3rd Gens are "gone" is pretty simple, IMO. It is not the M&P line and not polymer guns across the board. The answer is the 1911. The ridiculous wave of popularity associated with the 1911 pretty much forced S&W to also jump in the fray and something had to give.
The 3rd Gen pistols is what had to give.
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