What caused the demise of 3rd Gen. Smiths?

[K Frame Keith]

In 27 years working as an LEO I carried steel, alloy and polymer handguns. Today, I carry/own only metal frame weapons. Guess I have the luxuary of carrying what feels right in my hand. Today, folks buy what is modern..trendy. Polymer does work fine, but it is a matter of quality. Truly fine watches and jewelery will never be made of poylymer and neither will FINE handguns.

 

[StatesRightist]

In 27 years working as an LEO I carried steel, alloy and polymer handguns. Today, I carry/own only metal frame weapons. Guess I have the luxuary of carrying what feels right in my hand. Today, folks buy what is modern..trendy. Polymer does work fine, but it is a matter of quality. Truly fine watches and jewelery will never be made of poylymer and neither will FINE handguns.

Exactly...polymer works....but it's like comparing Rolex and Seiko.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Beretta and Sig always had a certain amount of commercial sales that I think likely exceeded those of the third generation autos. The 3rd generation guns seem to have done best with institutional sales. I don't know that as many people bought them commercially.

Institutional sales continue for the 92 series (the 96 is as far as I know no longer offered b/c LE sales dried up) and the Sigs (particularly the P229s).

S&W also failed to offer increased capacity mags as a factory option. Higher cap (than 15) mags are readily had from Sig and Beretta for their 9mms. While S&W at one point made 20rd mags (I have an old logo one dating to the original 59) they don't seem to have marketed them aggressively, nor bothered to have MecGar stamp a S&W logo on their excellent 17rd mags. They did increase capacity from 14rds to 15rds in the early 90s but that was it.

Steel frame exposed hammer guns are still made and sold by CZ btw. At least last I checked. The Italians (Tanfoglio), Turks, and Filipinos make copies or variants there of as well.

FN meanwhile makes rather nice DA/SA exposed hammer polymer pistols, though everyone seems to ignore them.

I took my early 90s square guard 5903 to the range no long ago, with MecGar 17rd mags. It was a delight to shoot and quite accurate. I did replace the grips on mine with a set of Uncle Mikes aftermarket panels after the original ones broke though.

 

[CQB27]

....and Glock undercutting the market for 2 years ala Wal-Mart had nothing to do with it right? The fact they lost money and a lot of it per unit in order to undersell Smith and force competition out of the market is immaterial, correct? Neither the story or your assessment of Gen 3's is as simple as your post..

OK it's all Glock's fault.

 

[bennettfam]

a whole lot of folks would be a lot better off to spend the 4 bills on the weapon and the the rest on ammo for practice.

True that!

Attended a CCW class recently and 3 of the 5 shooters were all over the paper at 25' with very few hits in the kill zone at all. One shooter wasn't even hitting the paper! They were talking about what new gun they wanted to upgrade to. What they needed more than a fancy gun, as the above poster so wisely suggested, was practice practice practice.

(those 3 were shooting a Ruger LCR, Ruger GP100, and a Sigma)

 

[StatesRightist]

OK it's all Glock's fault.

No one said that and you can save your eye rolls. Your assessment was polymer is better and cheaper than metal, which it is cheaper, better, not in a large group of people's opinions. There were a myriad of factors involved beyond what you cited, being my point.

 

[CQB27]

No one said that and you can save your eye rolls. Your assessment was polymer is better and cheaper than metal, which it is cheaper, better, not in a large group of people's opinions. There were a myriad of factors involved beyond what you cited, being my point.

Kindly quote where I said polymer was better. What I said was all metal 3rd gen S&Ws cost more, weigh more and do nothing the current array of polymer pistols can't do. The "polymer is better" argument is yours alone. I was simply responding to the "Glock and Walmart" killed the S&W gen 3 pistol theory. I stand by the , you know the free speech thing.

 

[StatesRightist]

Kindly quote where I said polymer was better. What I said was all metal 3rd gen S&Ws cost more, weigh more and do nothing the current array of polymer pistols can't do. The "polymer is better" argument is yours alone. I was simply responding to the "Glock and Walmart" killed the S&W gen 3 pistol theory. I stand by the , you know the free speech thing.

The only people I know who roll their eyes are teenage girls...so you'll pardon me if I feel like this conversation is going nowhere positive or on a level I care to indulge in and end it.

 

[CQB27]

The only people I know who roll their eyes are teenage girls...so you'll pardon me if I feel like this conversation is going nowhere positive or on a level I care to indulge in and end it.

Since now choose to hide behind insulting my manhood while ignoring addressing your claim that I said "polymer is cheaper and better than metal", I have zero problem ending this.

OP, my sincere apologies for the hijack.

 

[Titegroups]

Plastic frames and stamped sheet metal internals makes for good margins. Creative destruction at work here.

 

[Silversmok3]

What seems to be happening in the shooting world is a collision of two schools of thought.

On one side of the table are the old timer shooters who believe in a frame made of steel and a great trigger pull. Such a shottist believes that pressing the trigger and hitting the target is of prime import, and all other considerations regarding end use or treatment of the pistol is secondary as long as the piece is a quality unit.

The other side are populated by people who believe polymer frames are the way to go in terms of capacity and reliability, sometimes taken to extreme levels.Such hold the belief that the traditional double action pistol is obsolete and that any who would decide to carry such a piece is stuck in the past, as after all haven't Glocks and other polymer frame choices been on sale for some time?

I would state that Glock has done nothing new or innovative to change the status of the pistol world that wasn't done already in 1911 with the Colt pistol of the same name, or in 1935 with the Browning Hi-power, or in 1959 with the S&W model 59. Ironic that a small cult of people cherish a pistol that has an inferior trigger pull built to standards of reliability that they will never reach. I have yet to see a practical instance of a shottist needing to recover a fallen carry piece lost during a 10,000 ft skydive, but I see at every range trip a need for the return of the excellent trigger pull. Perhaps then people will be motivated to shoot their guns instead of flapping e-gums about them.

 

[lhump1961]

We can go on and on about the +/- of steel and poly guns and be mostly right depending on what you like in a gun. I agree with the comment that progress was the demise of the 3rd gen Smiths. The buyers dictate the market and they have spoken. I don't own a poly gun only because I like steel and my guns aren't just "tools" for me...they are one of my passions. I like craftsmanship and style in a well made gun to go along with great functionality. As for what people will pay? I just saw a NIB 6906 go for $725.00 on GB. But probably not enough people like that to support production.

 

[blujax01]

"S&W made a smart decision IMO to drop the Gen 3 guns"


Blasphemy.

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

 

[blujax01]

True that!

Attended a CCW class recently and 3 of the 5 shooters were all over the paper at 25' with very few hits in the kill zone at all. One shooter wasn't even hitting the paper! They were talking about what new gun they wanted to upgrade to. What they needed more than a fancy gun, as the above poster so wisely suggested, was practice practice practice.

(those 3 were shooting a Ruger LCR, Ruger GP100, and a Sigma)

You see the same thing on the golf course. Dudes spending $500 on a driver just to hit the ball that much farther into the woods!

"It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing"

 

[Mosinguy]

My department currently issues the 5906 and 6906. S&W stopped supporting the 6906 a few years ago. In the near future I think parts for the 5906 from the factory will become an issue.

I thought they still made the 5906TSW? If they still make that I'd have to assume there are still parts being produced. If not, there are tons on the surplus market. Plus really, what would my 5906 need in 15 years anyways? Maybe some recoil springs, maybe an extractor?

 

[CQB27]

I thought they still made the 5906TSW? If they still make that I'd have to assume there are still parts being produced. If not, there are tons on the surplus market. Plus really, what would my 5906 need in 15 years anyways? Maybe some recoil springs, maybe an extractor?

We actually rarely need to replace extractors. About the only common wear items are magazine springs and a small spring inside the decocker. The most common replaced part is the night sights, and they are not manufactured by S&W.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

P239 SAS Gen 2

SIG can't make their new P239's, P938's and P238's fast enough and are adding additional shifts to get more guns to markets. The 1911 field is ever expanding. Remington and Ruger are both capturing robust sales with their 1911 offerings, and they seem to be able to make them profitably while MSRP's are under $800.

Several of our local LE agencies have switched from Glocks to Sigs. Almost every officer you talk to, that has a choice , will choose a SIG over a GLock.

These are buyers that S&W potentially lost when they abandoned the 3rd gen market. Maybe it was so they could focus only on their M&P lines, but I think it was a big mistake. They also make plenty of sales and plenty of profits on their "classic" revolver line - they should be able to do the same with a limited edition of wither classic 3rd gens or some "4th gens".

In my opinion, it's really foolish to drop the alloy pistol line up and let SIG and Beretta dominate that segment.

By the way, there are some quality polymer framed pistols. I think the M&P lines are good guns. The Walther PPS is an outstanding weapon in its own right, but maybe one of the best CCW guns out there in Polymer. And my favorite, which another post mentioned above, are the FNH guns with hammer fired actions. My son bought one after I convinced him it was one of the better new pistols out on the market. He likes my 3rd gens and wanted a new gun, and already has a Walther PPS. he wanted the new gun to be hammer fired, DA/SA and high quality. After trying many out he locked in on an FNP9. That gun is great handling and a great shooter. Probably one of the best out of the box triggers I've used in a long time and extremely accurate.

I'm probably going to buy a less expensive polymer framed gun - for my fly fishing waders/vest use. Other than that, I'll stick with alloy or steel framed guns. In fact, I'll probably buy a compact SIG P239Gen II this year. That's the 4th gen gun S&W should be making. De-horned slide and frame, etc. Only I wish it had a frame mounted de-cocker.

On the other hand, I just saw a LNIB 3914 go for $335 the other day on GunBroker. It's just amazing that you can buy 3rd gens, LNIB, like a 3913/14; 4513's, etc., for $330-$500. Every time I think I should get a new 1911 or SIG I find some great deal on a 3rd gen S&W!

 

[dacoontz]

What demise???

 

[CQB27]

What demise???

WOW! Very nice.

 

[dsk]

I have to concede that from a manufacturing perspective polymer is here to stay, and it will only increase as ways are found to make even slides and barrels from the stuff (or at least, made using steel sleeves inside). Having said that however, I am first and foremost a gun enthusiast, and I'm about as attached to my Glock or Kel-Tecs as I am my toothbrush. I really hope that all-metal firearms don't die completely, because guns are fast losing their charm with me. Everything in the gun stores is flat black and made of polymer these days, and that excitement that comes from seeing a pretty polished blue finish and walnut grips or stocks is gettting harder and harder to come by.

Outdated or not, I'll keep my all-metal Smiths thank you.