Laser Grips in a Law Enforcement Setting

[SW CQB 45]

I have long been a proponent for marksmanship proficiency and plain ol iron sights.

I recently put an EOTEC on my AR and wondered why have I waited so long.

There have been a couple of officers request laser sights for their personal weapons and I have long been against the use of lasers on duty weapons because

according to murphy

when you need the laser to work and rely on it soley, you marksmanship skills will diminish and of course it wont work when you need it too and of course valuable seconds are lost.

I was recently shown the videos linked below and the shooters on the videos are not your average run of the mill yeayhooos. In my opinion, these folks are considered top of the line in their field of expertise.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Ho...bid/396/Default.aspx

after watching the videos, I questioned myself, why would these top notch folks who are in the spotlight endorse a product that I have been so much against.

the product would have to be first rate, RIGHT???

I started to wonder, if one is faced with a deadly force situation and time is of the essance, this product makes sense in the areas of

speed
confidence
accuracy
intimidation

however the issue of reliability comes to play.

are these puppies reliable? is there any horror stories of them not working in a shoot situation?

does your dept have policies governing or not allowing use?

By our policy, dept issued guns cannot be altered. since they are glocks, attaching a laser to a glock in many admins opinions is altering.

however personal weapons can be within a degree and have to be approved by a dept armorer.

Currently I know of one officer at our dept who uses a G34 with a lasermax. I dont care for the switch on lasermax, but I have not heard any complaints from him.

I bought a railed 1911 (for duty use) to attach a white light. now there is so much taboo in the area of... if your searching with your gun mounted light your pointing a weapon at somebody. well in LE, if we have our gun out, chances are high the potential for finding someone is usually in the area of criminal in nature.

However, if the big concern is a weapon mounted light, one could have a laser (switch is on the grip controlled by grabbing the grip, IE Crimson Trace) and a flashlight in the other hand.

if your light finds a threat, the one handed gun with a laser gets on target and can be accurate with one hand (if the user trains).

I am of the opinion in a LE setting, proficiency with regular style qualifying (no laser on) must be high, maintained and then qualify and show proficiency using the laser in order to carry.

those who dont prefer to train and just squeak by on quals, would or should not be allowed use as "murphy" may kick in. they need to be proficient when the laser does not turn on. again this is my opinion.

any thoughts, experiences and policies are welcomed.

thanks for looking

 

[SW CQB 45]

I have long been a proponent for marksmanship proficiency and plain ol iron sights.

I recently put an EOTEC on my AR and wondered why have I waited so long.

There have been a couple of officers request laser sights for their personal weapons and I have long been against the use of lasers on duty weapons because

according to murphy

when you need the laser to work and rely on it soley, you marksmanship skills will diminish and of course it wont work when you need it too and of course valuable seconds are lost.

I was recently shown the videos linked below and the shooters on the videos are not your average run of the mill yeayhooos. In my opinion, these folks are considered top of the line in their field of expertise.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/Ho...bid/396/Default.aspx

after watching the videos, I questioned myself, why would these top notch folks who are in the spotlight endorse a product that I have been so much against.

the product would have to be first rate, RIGHT???

I started to wonder, if one is faced with a deadly force situation and time is of the essance, this product makes sense in the areas of

speed
confidence
accuracy
intimidation

however the issue of reliability comes to play.

are these puppies reliable? is there any horror stories of them not working in a shoot situation?

does your dept have policies governing or not allowing use?

By our policy, dept issued guns cannot be altered. since they are glocks, attaching a laser to a glock in many admins opinions is altering.

however personal weapons can be within a degree and have to be approved by a dept armorer.

Currently I know of one officer at our dept who uses a G34 with a lasermax. I dont care for the switch on lasermax, but I have not heard any complaints from him.

I bought a railed 1911 (for duty use) to attach a white light. now there is so much taboo in the area of... if your searching with your gun mounted light your pointing a weapon at somebody. well in LE, if we have our gun out, chances are high the potential for finding someone is usually in the area of criminal in nature.

However, if the big concern is a weapon mounted light, one could have a laser (switch is on the grip controlled by grabbing the grip, IE Crimson Trace) and a flashlight in the other hand.

if your light finds a threat, the one handed gun with a laser gets on target and can be accurate with one hand (if the user trains).

I am of the opinion in a LE setting, proficiency with regular style qualifying (no laser on) must be high, maintained and then qualify and show proficiency using the laser in order to carry.

those who dont prefer to train and just squeak by on quals, would or should not be allowed use as "murphy" may kick in. they need to be proficient when the laser does not turn on. again this is my opinion.

any thoughts, experiences and policies are welcomed.

thanks for looking

 

[Andy Taylor]

I run a small security department in a casino and I have always felt the same as you. Not reliable and a replacement for marksmanship. All our officers provide their own guns. I must approve the gun and our policy does not mention lasers one way or another. I have not had an officer request to be allowed to use one, but my feelings about them are known, so they may have just not bothered, figuring the answer would be no. It most likely would be.

BTW: How did that N frame holster work out for you?

 

[Buford57]

Your reasoning of qualifying with sights and demonstrating proficiency in using the laser sight seems sound to me, although I have been out of active LE since the debate was whether autoloaders were reliable enough for duty use.

I have never owned or used a laser sight and generally distrust reliance on "gimmicks" rather than regular training, but if the intimidation factor on the suspect's part and the confidence factor on the officer's part combine to bring about more arrests without gunfire, it might be worth a try.

 

[Careby]

Whether or not a laser is appropriate for duty is a question I wouldn't presume to comment on. But I know there is great value in using a laser some during practice. It adds real-time feedback of pointing and target coverage and I'm convinced I'm more accurate using a laserless gun for having practiced with a laser.

 

[S/W - Lifer]

I'm a career LEO and have never been issued a laser for a handgun. My M-4 carbine came with a laser that is activated with a switch in the foregrip. I found it handy on the carbine but don't miss it on the handgun.

I work for an agency whose handgun training is first rate. Intense and in-depth training has provided an ingrained "muscle memory" in drawing the pistol. The draw culminates in the pistol being pointed directly where it needs to be. A flash sight picture confirms aim and rounds are out. We train at night or in darkened conditions using a variety of techniques. My pistol has night sights but I don't really need them or a laser, although I welcome them as optional.

If your shooters are well trained, the laser may be a luxery. If your training program has room for improvement in basic skills, the laser may be helpful. I surely would not use it as a replacement for basic marksmanship. The laser should be a tool, not a crutch.

I'm sending my daughter a revolver for self defense. She is a reasonable shot but she is not a professional gunfighter. Her gun will have lasergrips and a Big Dot front sight to help give her an edge. If these give her confidence and helps her to hit her target, especially at night, I'm all for it.

 

[Patrick604]

Lasers are great for civilians and for training LEO's about trigger control and shooting on the move, but . . .

Lasers for police duty use are a bad thing IMHO. LEO's operate as teams. Let's say you show up at a scene with a couple of backup officers. You all draw down on the suspect. Which dot is yours? Is your dot on the center of the chest, or wide right shining on a bedroom window halfway down the block? You can't be sure, and that is a bad situation.

 

[Doug M.]

They are a useful tool for your snubby BUG. I had a set of LG405 grips on my J frame, but I have no others. Red sights on a rifle? You betcha. I am old, and my eyes are well on the way to sucking. Aimpoint is your life saving pal.

 

[S-W4EVER]

Our young warriors in Iraq and Afghanistan have done our R&D for us. Aimpoints, EOTechs, and ACOGs are all combat-proven (and very reliable)and thus good to go for the street. I believe the greatest benefit is in speed rather than an increase in intrensic accuracy.

It has always baffled me why someone in a high risk occupation (like law enforcement) wouldn't want to take advantage of the latest proven technology to gain the advantage.

I may have 30+ years on the job, but I refuse to be a dinosaur.

1*

 

[paladin42]

I've never seen a bit of confusion in training. When you're looking at the dots it's pretty evident which dot is yours by the movements your weapon is making. And, you should be looking over the sights at the dot anyway.

Originally posted by Patrick604:
... LEO's operate as teams. Let's say you show up at a scene with a couple of backup officers. You all draw down on the suspect. Which dot is yours? Is your dot on the center of the chest, or wide right shining on a bedroom window halfway down the block? You can't be sure, and that is a bad situation.

 

[JohnK]

And a laser lets you see what is in the BG's HANDS. (your handgun can be slightly below the sights).

A rather important thing in a confrontation.

 

[Bat Guano]

Sorry--I am with the familarity and muscle memory crowd. We used to do a fair amount of night fire with flashlights and had excellent results--often better than daylight at close range. On the one occasion we had a laser user on the line he came in last. He was screwing around with his dot while everyone else was all done hitting.

Owned one of the things (it was given to me) for a while. I found it pointless, gave it to my wife for her gun, and she dumped it. Sold it for something useful like primers.

Now my ACOG--that really works and I love it. Some stuff really serves a purpose, and some (90%) is made just to sell.

 

[pawncop]

I had a laser on my previous duty sidearm,Glock 21C. Primary reason I put it on was in the situation that I could "light em up" and perhaps convince them bad things were about to happen and change the behavior without deadly force. Never got a chance to test the theory, now hav a S&W M&P 45 ACP without the laser.