LE Agency purchase of 3rd Gen Smiths

[Hawgleg44]

I know years ago, after S&W discontinued production of their metal pistols for those plastic toys, LE agencies could still purchase some models. Does anyone know if this is still an option, or has that practice been discontinued? Currently, we are issued M&P .40's and we will be replacing them next year, definitely with something else. If the 3rd Gen Smiths are no longer available it looks like we will swap to Sig.

 

[dmb]

Not sure if the RCMP still gets any new 5946's. I know one specialized unit recently converted to Glock 19's, so the writing could be on the wall.

 

[triaxle]

How have the Smith M/P line worked out for you guys . A lot are going with the Sig 320 full and Carry in 9mm, it sounded like you did not care for the Smiths ??????????

 

[18DAI]

IIRC s&w told NYPD no more 5946s or 3914DAOs. I think the odds are slim that they would make anything for your agency.

Locally, the Guilford County Sheriffs department is dumping the m&p45 and going back to Glocks. The two local police deparments have gone to Sig 320s.

Good luck! Enjoy those new Sigs! Regards 18DAI

 

[TTSH]

If the 3rd Gen Smiths are no longer available it looks like we will swap to Sig.

Good luck! Enjoy those new Sigs! Regards 18DAI

LOL!!! Yeah, I think it would take quite a large agency order to convince the mothership to get back into 3rd Gen production again. They would be kicking and screaming and begging and practically giving away their newest M2.0 plastic wonder gun alternatives before calling up Houlton and telling them to please start-up the 3rd Gen production line once again!

When you have bet the entire gazillion dollar farm (i.e., the US cop market) on a plastic future, going backwards to the all-metal past would likely be too hard a corporate pill to swallow.

So enjoy those Sigs! Hell, even 3rd Gen collector moi has turned to all-metal Sigs since I can't buy brand new S&W 3rd Gens anymore. And they are pretty damn nice guns.

 

[Hawgleg44]

That's too bad. The best DA/SA trigger pulls gone forever.

We have not had any failures with the M&Ps but we are going back to DA/SA pistols. Not only does the chief prefer them but the officers are in favor of it too.

Another agency near us just swapped out their Sigs and went with the Glock 19. The 320 was preferred in testing but they felt it was too new at the time and were afraid of another Sigma issue where it took years to get a model that ran right.

If I had to guess now I'd say it will be either a P229 or 2022 we end up with. If I get to choose, which will probably be the case, it will be the 2022.

 

[18DAI]

It is too bad. Several years back the West Virginia State Police wanted more 4566s. The current company posing as s&w told them no. Buy the m&p. WVSP said thanks we will go with Glock instead.

So, s&w made them a 750 unit batch of Melonite 4566TSWs with integral rails and decock only. It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like.

With their competitiors eating their lunch in the LE market and a shrinking market overall, you may find someone with an ounce of sense who can see the not too distant future. Regards 18DAI

 

[HCH]

It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like./QUOTE]

Yes, please do this and let us know their response.

 

[GaryS]

I've owned both a Glock and an M&P 9c. Neither can hold a candle to my 3913s, 6906, or 5906.

And for 18DAI I'll throw in my 457 and 3914NL.

On a different forum someone posted that S&W has a rebate going on for some Shield models. I suggested he'd get a better firearm by buying a CS9 or 3913.

Which brings to mind a quote from a spokesman for Volvo back in the early 1970s. That's when American companies were offering huge rebates on their cars.

The quote was something like, "When you make a good product, you don't have to pay people to buy them."

It is too bad. Several years back the West Virginia State Police wanted more 4566s. The current company posing as s&w told them no. Buy the m&p. WVSP said thanks we will go with Glock instead.

So, s&w made them a 750 unit batch of Melonite 4566TSWs with integral rails and decock only. It may be worth your while to contact the LE reps at s&w and tell them what you would like.

With their competitiors eating their lunch in the LE market and a shrinking market overall, you may find someone with an ounce of sense who can see the not too distant future. Regards 18DAI

 

[hkcavalier]

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

 

[GaryS]

There aren't that many pictures at the website, but from what I've seen, they do look a lot like the 3rd Gen guns. Sadly, we'll never see them in the PRM. OTOH, if I ever tunnel my way out, it might be a good option.

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

It looks like both versions are double stack. A single stack ala the 3913 would be very nice. The price point is attractive, especially if the guns are as reliable as a 3rd Gen.

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

 

[AlHunt]

There aren't that many pictures at the website, but from what I've seen, they do look a lot like the 3rd Gen guns. Sadly, we'll never see them in the PRM. OTOH, if I ever tunnel my way out, it might be a good option.

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

It looks like both versions are double stack. A single stack ala the 3913 would be very nice. The price point is attractive, especially if the guns are as reliable as a 3rd Gen.

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

 

[GaryS]

I can live with that. That might mean that it was originally designed for military sales. The large trigger guard says to me that someone planned on the guns being shot with gloves on.

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

 

[Fastbolt]

Last I was told, S&W corporate finally decided that all new production of 3rd gen metal pistols has ceased. No more NYPD or RCMP guns, even for those longtime S&W agency customers.

I didn't jot it down in my notes, but I thought I remember being told (in my last armorer recert) that there are maybe a half dozen, or less, large LE agency customers still using the metal 3rd gens. Also, one of those major agencies has reportedly recently placed an order for M&P 40's to replace their TSW's. Since I haven't seen it announced on the company website, so I'll let the naming of the agency await an official announcement from the company or the agency.

The 3rd gen/TSW guns are simply not profitable enough for the company to continue making, even having been shifted to the Houlton plant (where the SW1911's, .22's & handcuffs take up all that machine time).

As it was said, how many LE agencies are going to be willing to pay the LE price of $1000 for a metal gun (for the company to make even a minimal profit), when they can buy two plastic guns for less?

Sure, SIG is going to continue to help satisfy the existing commercial market for metal guns (especially with their gun-of-the-month fancy model variations, and the 10mm), but don't be surprised if the LE sales may continue to diminish. Why else would they have launched their P250 as the tentative service pistol "flagship" a few years ago, only to see the writing on the wall and create their striker-fired P320 model?

While I too would REALLY like to see S&W at least continue a small production capability of the 3rd gen's, I'd not be willing to pay the cost of a commercially retailed 3rd gen, or even a much lower $1000 LE price. I'd sooner buy another 1911 for that kind of money ... or a couple plastic pistols which will run fine for many years.

 

[MWater]

I see that they went back to the 2nd Gen style grips, which is a plus to me.

They didn't really "go back" to the 2-gen style grips--the K5/DP51 (and hence LH9) are simply derived from the 2nd gen with quite a few modifications.

But that awful, awful, gigantic square trigger guard ...

You're going to need thick gloves for Korean winter.

I picked up a basic LH9 on black friday the year before last for $400. For that, it's a no-brainer. Even with the differences, I think it's the closest thing to a *new* metal S&W pistol.

I would love a compact, single-stack version of it, but Lionheart are just importers. I think the pattern on the grips is the extent of their technical skills.

 

[GaryS]

Ahhh. I made the mistake of reading into the comments. Still, they do have the 2nd/3rd Gen look to them. Which isn't a bad thing.

They didn't really "go back" to the 2-gen style grips--the K5/DP51 (and hence LH9) are simply derived from the 2nd gen with quite a few modifications.

It seems that these are actually made by Daewoo, which means that they were probably made for the S. Korean military. Which probably means no single stack version is in the future. I can dream, though, can't I?

You're going to need thick gloves for Korean winter.

I picked up a basic LH9 on black friday the year before last for $400. For that, it's a no-brainer. Even with the differences, I think it's the closest thing to a *new* metal S&W pistol.

I would love a compact, single-stack version of it, but Lionheart are just importers. I think the pattern on the grips is the extent of their technical skills.

 

[TNZ71]

Man, I figured you 3rd Gen lovers would have gone toward the Lionheart guns, since they're definitely a "product improved" S&W.

Yes the Lionheart is derived from Daewoo K5 DP51 that was imported a short time in the 90s. Lots of similarities and the magazines are interchangeable with 5900 series Smiths

 

[GaryS]

Are the compact series magazine interchangeable with the 69xx series?

I read a bit of history of the design. It's been around since the late 1980s and was sold commercially in the US by a number of companies.

I like that double action plus design, but I'm unsure about not magazine safety. Of course while I like magazine safeties, I never completely trust them. "Trust, but verify" as Pres. Reagan used to say.

Yes the Lionheart is derived from Daewoo K5 DP51 that was imported a short time in the 90s. Lots of similarities and the magazines are interchangeable with 5900 series Smiths

 

[MWater]

Are the compact series magazine interchangeable with the 69xx series?

It appears so. They'll stick out a bit:

I don't have a compact, but the 69xx mags are just a bit too short for the full-size version and the 59xx mags stick out a good bit.

 

[S&W Rover]

The irony is that it would cost less now than it did 15-20 years ago to make a 3rd Generation pistol. Everybody went polymer and adopted simple striker designs to cut machining costs and the number of parts in a pistol, based on manufacturing technologies of the times -- either led by Glock or imitating Glock.

But with CNC machining, and subcontracting and "just in time" delivery of sub-components (springs, screws, etc.), a 3rd Generation S&W could be reasonably priced! OR somewhat reasonably priced, albeit not as cheap as a polymer pistol with a striker about as complex as a ball-point pen. But the lower cost of manufacturing by CNC is one reason why we see so many variants of the 1911 being made (or finished) by so many companies, and these are being sold for $500 and up. Indeed, there are many versions of the classic Sigs now for the same reason, although Sig-Sauer is selling them for $800-900 and up.

It is noteworthy that Sig-Sauer, while continuing with the P-classics, is building a very good striker-fired pistol and, based on the military contract, may also sell a lot of them to LE and private sales. And Sig-Sauer is selling the P-320 to the US Army for $208 per pistol!

Could S&W make a 5906 or 3913 for the modern market? Could TDA pistols -- an inherently superior design, based on practical accuracy and safety factors -- make a comeback? The market is shrinking and it would be hard to get LE to go back to a heavy, all metal pistol -- but most of all, what would make these pistols worth the extra price?

Any new all-metal pistol would have to have exceptional accuracy and reliability to get a share of the high end market, which probably means being a player in competition shooting -- like CZ has become with all-metal pistols. And it has to be a labor of love by the company that makes it. And it would involve a long-term commitment to build them, perfect them, and offer maintenance support for them for a long while. $1000 for a new 5906? I just bought a pretty good used on for less than half of that.