LE use of M1/M2 Carbine

[LoboGunLeather]

I didn't, but my father's department had a rack of Thompson .45 ACP submachine guns into the mid 1970's. They got a new chief, a retired Army colonel, and the Thompson's got traded for full-sized M16's at a fraction of each would be worth today. In hindsight, the fella' that got the Thompson's got the better deal . . .

Early 1970's my department had eight 1928 Thompsons in the armory, along with a couple of dozen drums and about 5000 rounds of WW1 surplus ammo. I mentioned that I had used a Thompson in Vietnam and the boss put me to work servicing the guns, test firing, cleaning, etc. Had some fun for a few days. Shortly thereafter the decision was made to trade them in for AR15's, I think they got $250 each in trade for the Thompsons (each of which would be worth $30K-plus today). I got away with all the .45 ammo I could carry for a nickel a round (still using brass with 1917 and 1918 headstamps, it just doesn't seem to wear out).

We also had several Winchester Model 1892 carbines in various calibers (.32-20, .38-40, .44-40), and a couple of Model 1895's in .30-40. Wish I knew the history on those, and what ever happened to them.

M1 Carbines were moderately popular with cops in my area, but all I knew about were privately owned. We had a department regulation prohibiting auxiliary weapons, but there were a few supervisors who turned a blind eye on those of us who carried a carbine in the trunk of the patrol car. Later on, as an investigator for a state agency with over half the state as my assigned territory I regularly kept a M1 Carbine in the trunk. Never had reason to use it, but there were a few incidents in which it was comforting to have with me.

This being Colorado I also carried my fly rods and tackle while on road trips. I had a trailer hitch mounted on my state car so I could pull my camping trailer because I could claim a per diem allowance for lodging. Catch the morning hatch on a trout stream, put on a coat and tie to go chase bad guys all day, then catch the evening hatch. I never thought they hired me because I was stupid!

 

[Texas Star]

I was just looking at Buffalo Bore's site and they load carbine ammo with a 110 grain JSP bullet at 2100 FPS. With such ammo, it's probably a pretty good killer.

Remember, in the 1898 British cavalry charge at Omdurman, Lt. Churchill fired the ten rounds in his Mauser C-96. I think he claimed three kills,a couple of probables, two wounded, one "doubtful", and I don't recall the rest. His account is in, "My Early Life" (pub. in 1930) if you can locate a copy.

The .30 Carbine round is hotter than .30 Mauser, so if you strike bone, it probably works well, and may even if you don't.

Keep in mind that Churchill was killing men with swords swarming around him and was sometimes almost touching his targets with the muzzle. He was using the Mauser in lieu of his .455 Wilkinson-Webley, Model of 1892, so must have had confidence in the Mauser's stopping power.

By 1915, he bought a Colt M-1911 .45 to take to France in WWI. But I don't know if he shot anyone with it, although he often carried that gun under his suit in WWII. Does anyone know what Churchill did in France in WWI? He may have been a staff officer who didn't see actual combat. But he was ready in case he did.

 

[lawandorder]

Joe always enjoy your threads and the folks who post in them sharing information and images of guns & gear used by law enforcement in days gone by.

There are many of us who are interested in those old times because many of us lived them.

Hope you have plans to put together a book on the subject!

 

[Joe Kent]

lawandorder, thank you for your kind words. I too like to think back and remember how it was. In many respects I wish we could return to some aspects, not all, of those times. God Bless and keep all of our First Responders and I hope they all know that they are in all of our thoughts and prayers. All my very best my friend, Joe.

 

[M29since14]

I used to be acquainted with an ISP trooper who kept one in his cruiser. It was probably an M1. Of course he had his rack-mounted shotgun, and he frequently carried a J-frame, a Chiefs Special I’d guess, in his back pocket under certain circumstances. He was also trained as a diver and a photographer so when he opened his trunk it was FULL of the darnedest assortment of goodies I’d ever seen. Nice fellow too, to me anyway.

That was so long ago that the Speed Graphics were just being phased out and the fun topic between us was whether he would get a Rolleiflex or 35mm. I can’t recall how that worked out. The 4x5 was such a nuisance that I would do the pics if I was around. He would tell me what he wanted and stand right beside me when I made the exposures. My employer supplied the finished prints (b&w) at no cost to ISP, of course.

 

[mdf9183]

I qualified in USAF basic training with the M1 Carbine but never carried one when I was in LE. We had Rem. 870 in the patrol units but only the Sgt.s had a AR in the trunks of their units.

 

[bub075]

We have an M2 in the safe at work. There is a brass plaque on the right side of the stock proclaiming that the rifle was a gift to my PD from a local sporting goods distributor that used to be in business in our town till the mid '70's or so. There are 3 30rd and several 15rd mags in the safe, as well. The gun was polished and gloss blued, and the stock sanded and high gloss varnished, since it was a "presentation" gun. The problem is that whomever polished it got REALLY enthusiastic at the rear of the receiver. The maker's marks and, unfortunately, serial number, are so faint that some letters and numbers are pretty much unreadable. Since it also has the later, 100-200-300yd slide rear sight that overhangs the receiver in the rear, I can't make out who made the gun at all. I got the serial number, as best I could, and called the ATF to see if it was in the "machinegun" registry and, surprise surprise, they couldn't find it in the registry. Given the mess I have read that the registry is in, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it is there and they just couldn't find it. Since they told me that it isn't in the registry, I've considered having them send me a letter, in writing, that it isn't there, then take out the M2 parts and buy it from the PD for a plinker. The parts of the serial number that are VERY light, however, keep me from doing that.

I've taken it out and shot it several times, with the Chief' approval, of course. In semi, it acts just like a typical M1, light recoil, light, handy and a joy to shoot. In auto, it is a different matter. I'll admit that I don't have much experience with FA at all, but the gun climbs hard and fast. First round will be on target as long as you are aiming for the chest, second might hit the head, third round on and you are officially in antiaircraft mode. In semi, it would make a dandy patrol carbine, in full auto it is useless for LE use, IMO.

 

[touchoneoff]

Joe,
I carried this in the trunk of my un-marked unit for a spell....

Dave


.

Whoa Nelly! That would get the job done!

 

[loc n load]

M1 carbine

During the latter part of the 70’s and into the 80’s I was a DPS trooper in a SouthWestern state. We were issued 870’s, the “patrol rifle” concept had yet to emerge. My patrol supervisor was an old hand and pragmatic, he did not really care what we carried out on the road as long as we had the prescribed gear for inspections.
My “patrol rifle” was a Winchester 94 30-30. Although my M1 carbine is not a genuine U.S. military M1, this one was always kept handy in my cruiser. I kept a supply of ammo and mag’s close by as well. We carried revolvers back then, so I felt the need to have a little “ something extra” if the situation arose.

 

[max]

Years ago, Skeeter wrote an article about converting Winchester 92's to 44 mag. He thought they would serve lawmen much better than the M-1 carbine. He was not fond of that little rifle.

I have one and do not feel under armed with it. I saw a lot of them in Vietnam and felt they were the perfect size for the Vietnamese soldier.

 

[diyj98]

About ten years ago an importer brought in a bunch of M1 Carbines and was selling them as an LEO deal. Since they were brought in for law enforcement, import markings weren't required. They sold them dirt cheap for around $150 or so. I know several guys that were buying all them on department letterhead then reselling them for a nice profit.

 

[SG-688]

I went the opposite way than most. I started with a Costa Mesa AR-180 5.56 in 1973. AR-15 rifles were in short supply but I also liked the folding stock.

In about 1990, working a stakeout in "Mayberry" I had need of more range than offered by a 12 gauge. The boss had qualms about 5.56 in an urban area (Yes, now we know better.) but was OK with .30 Carbine. I pulled my M1 out of the safe and never looked back.

Remembering the Son Tay raiders taping their Aimpoint mounts, I taped a Sure Fire 6P to the side of the bayonet lug. The position was perfect. It worked so well that I never bothered with a proper mount.

 

[RichCapeCod]

From my book, Practical Handgun Training, my comments on the relative effectiveness of the M1 carbine:


Because I go into this matter in some detail in the next chapter I’ll simply end this short discussion on the subject with a single thought. In World War II the United States military put in the field a delightfully light long-arm, the M1 carbine (and its variants). This little rifle used a .30 caliber round which was reviled for its lack of “stopping power” as much as the small rifle was lauded for its utility due to its ease of carrying. The cartridge had the following ballistics:

.30” diameter / 110 grain projectile @ 1975 fps muzzle velocity

Yet, a popular, indeed, an excellent personal defense cartridge, the .357 Sig round, is considered by many to be one of the most effective personal defense cartridges currently available. Much is made of this round’s ability to cause anyone struck by it to instantly stop their aggressive actions. The ballistics of the .357 Sig may be seen below:

.355” diameter / 125 grain projectile @ 1425 fps muzzle velocity

So, we are to understand that a handgun cartridge whose projectile is .055” larger in diameter than that of the .30 caliber carbine round, firing a bullet that weighs 15 grains more (recall, there are 437½ grains to the ounce), yet with 400 fps less velocity, is a formidable anti-personnel round?

Yes, I am aware that the .357 Sig is able to use expanding projectiles while the military was limited to fully jacketed projectiles for use in the carbine. And that does make a difference. None the less, I find the comparison between the two rounds, in light of the anecdotal stories about both which I’ve been told and which I’ve read, to be worthy of critical reflection.

 

[sam3]

We had both dept. and personal owned m1 's into the 1990's with 110 grn. soft points .

 

[Racer X]

I didn't, but my father's department had a rack of Thompson .45 ACP submachine guns into the mid 1970's. They got a new chief, a retired Army colonel, and the Thompson's got traded for full-sized M16's at a fraction of each would be worth today. In hindsight, the fella' that got the Thompson's got the better deal . . .

My uncle, a detective, carried a Thompson in his trunk when on duty. It's my understanding it is still in the armory, the only one.

 

[Faulkner]

I carried an M1 carbine in my sheriff's patrol car for about 12 years or so. My department acquired some surplus USGI M1 carbines in the late '90's and I was tasked with preparing them for issue, mainly to our reserve officers. That's a whole 'nother story but it was a labor of love.

The M1 carbine I carried was in M1A1 configuration. The picture below was taken a few years back by a local newspaper reporter who snapped it when I was involved in a manhunt for a fleeing subject. The reporter, not being a gun guy, came up to me after he took the picture and wanted to know what kind of new fangled assault rifle I was carrying as he'd never seen one that had wood on it.

 

[safearm]

Although this thread is about the M-1/2 Carbine, I wanted to add that my department didn't believe in "patrol" rifles, or even precision rifles. We had two Thompsons in the gun safe, one a commercial Model 1928 and one a military M1. In the supervisor's car, we had a Winchester Model 1907 in .351WSL. Every patrol unit carried a 12 gauge shotgun, mostly Remington 870s with a couple of Winchesters and High Standards.

During the time I was with the department, we could carry personally owned handguns (as long as they were .38/.357 revolvers with a four inch barrel), but not long guns. After I left the department to go on active duty with the Air Force, the department sold off the Thompsons and the Model 1907 and used the funds to put an AR-type patrol rifle in every marked unit.

 

[Drm50]

Around my area there were a lot of M1 carbines, 351 Wins and a
few Thompsons used by PDs and Sheriffs. In the 70s most of these were traded in for modern stuff. The 97 Winchesters went
too.

 

[StakeOut]

On stake outs in the NYPD Stake Out Unit we carried M1 Carbines loaded with commercial soft tipped ammo in large locations like supermarkets.I remember only one time that a carbine was fired on a stake out and resulted in an armed robber meeting their maker.

I purchased one,Winchester, sometime in the mid 60s that was never issued issued.It came with a olive drab US marked canvass carry case,2 new sealed mags,cleaning rod,unused sling and oiler plus a lot of GI ammo that cost me $100 from a seller that needed cash.

I didn't keep the carbine very long since I much preferred the Garands I owned including a Springfield NM